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SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

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Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#381

Post by jurassic »

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

>> And honestly, she can't even function as a sort of "women's tech evangelist" anymore. Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women.

Female here. I'm a newbie in this field coming from science -- another male-dominated arena. My takeaway is that while I would not have a problem interacting with Adria I don't think I'd want to work at a place where top male talent is being repulsed by her actions or reputation. As a junior dev, I want to work with and learn from the best team that'll have me. That makes her a liability.

I do wish she'd handled everything differently. Women shouldn't freak when men say man things to other men, and even if you are offended you should just speak up for yourself and say so. This gives everyone a chance to behave properly without escalation. Most guys actually aren't jerks, they just lack self-awareness.

Women in tech should not behave as damsels in distress who cry out for help (to twitter) and need shining knights (pycon organizers) to intervene in minor situations like this. Take back the locus of control and own the situation.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#382

Post by xauronx »

nilkn wrote: post #168
salman89 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next?" I'm not agreeing with anything Adria did, but the issue of being labeled as the "tattletale" probably plays a big part in most women's reluctance to report real harassment.

I'm honestly curious what this even has to do with women. That's what puzzles me most about this whole incident. Maybe I'm insensitive or ignorant. I'll admit it if that's the case and learn. Right now, though, I just don't get it. I just don't see how a dongle joke is sexist. It's anatomical . It might have some mild sexual undertone, but there's a huge difference between sexism and a sexual undertone--they aren't t…

Yeah, I think that's one of the more frustrating parts of this. My female friends make much more crude penis/anatomy jokes. It's almost like she's saying "talking about the penis around women is inappropriate", which to me is more sexist than anything. I think her real gripe was that they were being crude/unprofessional/immature, but she decided to take it in the sexist route for some reason.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#383

Post by aheilbut »

knowtheory wrote: post #210
aheilbut wrote: post #53

All of this absurdity is why we have a legal system, not mob rule.

Except that what we really have is like 50/50 legal system / mob rule. The legal system isn't protecting Sendgrid from having the awesome day they're enjoying right now.

And that's why there's the computer fraud and abuse act...

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#384

Post by king_jester »

blhack wrote: post #78
salman89 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next?" I'm not agreeing with anything Adria did, but the issue of being labeled as the "tattletale" probably plays a big part in most women's reluctance to report real harassment.

Sure, and that is a legitimate problem that everybody has to face. "How much should I let myself be offended before I speak up about it?" But that is NOT what happened here. She even said in her blog post that she didn't find the fact that "dongle" and "dong" sound similar offensive. She decided to try and humiliate these guys over some desire to protect the possible future of some kid whose picture was being shown o…

> Sure, and that is a legitimate problem that everybody has to face. "How much should I let myself be offended before I speak up about it?"

For someone in a marginalized group, they hear constant micro-aggression from a large amount of people daily. Each one of those comments and encounters builds that feeling of not belonging and resentment. That is the context in which folks have to deal with this kind of thing, so they are typically dealing with more than just that one incident you hear about.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#385

Post by dfxm12 »

kalkin wrote: post #189
blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

A bunch of sexist loons attack somebody, and the right thing to do is fire her because it proves she isn't a good evangelist anymore? Seems to me that's awarding a really dangerous amount of power to sexist loons on the Internet. ... I suppose I should defend the "sexist loons" label. It would be one thing if people were attacking PlayHaven. They're the ones who made the decision to overreact to Adria's post and fire…

What does this say about the power Richards has? This whole situation sees one person over-react after another. It's quite bizarre, really.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#386

Post by knowtheory »

runevault wrote: post #327
knowtheory wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mm. A lot of these comments preclude the possibility that Adria might grow, change, or rehabilitate herself. And as such, these come off very much as if they're putting nails into her coffin. There are people who do deserve to be run out of their industries, Stephen Glass, or Jonah Lehrer come to mind immediately. That is not a proportionate or reasonable response to what has happened here, but then, nothing about th…

The question isn't so much "can she grow and change" as "will the wider world let go of her mistake?" People as a group seem prone to not let things go if they get out of hand past a certain point (which this seems far past whatever that point might be). Is it fair? Not really. Does that change the fact she's potentially damaged her ability to get another job like the one she was just let go from permanently? No it d…

You're right, but part of this is our tolerance towards others and how they screw up. And there are definitely unequal amounts of tolerance here directed at the various parties involved.

Some of that probably is due to the fact that the dude who got fired did make a public apology, and Adria didn't. But again, that's on her. That's not about what's ethical about the way we treat others. The way we behave as 3rd parties to all of this i don't think is contingent on whether or not Adria apologizes for something.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#387

Post by WalterSear »

rmc wrote: post #322
WalterSear wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also happens to men in female dominated fields and social enviroments. It's not inherently sexist - humans use stereotypes to categorize everything and everyone, and we haven't, as a society, codified how we should navigate these kind of conflicts without butthurt.

Sure, it happens to men in the much smaller number of much less well paid jobs that are female dominated.

That is neither here nor there in relation to the issue we are discussing.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#388

Post by colin_jack »

wilg wrote: post #357
colin_jack wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has confused me. As a European the idea that making dongle jokes is specifically sexist or worse harassment seems a bit odd. Its childish, its in bad taste, and not very funny. Its also against pycon rules so they got their wrists slapped like naughty children which is all fine. However the idea it was anything more serious is kinda confusing to me.

I feel like this isn't an "American" vs. "European" thing. There's clearly a lot of controversy over the seriousness of these jokes in America and elsewhere.

You could be right but I'm not sure I've heard it discussed much in a British setting.

In fairness you don't hear many dongle/large feet type jokes but I think that's because they are crude, not really funny, and not really suitable for a professional environment.

Having said that I don't think I've ever heard anyone linking them directly to sexism.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#389

Post by RougeFemme »

blhack wrote: post #319
RougeFemme wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I first got into tech, I didn't want to be viewed as different, either. Even when guys would tell me in very blatant racist/sexist ways that I was different and that that difference made me inferior, I tried very hard to be "just like Mike". But now I say that in all the ways that make me successful professionally , I'm like you. But in some ways, I'm different. And that should be OK. And in many ways, outside o…

I would never argue that you have to act like a boy to get respect. That would be horrible. And I agree that people are different. I was, I'm sure, [partially due to my chromosomes and reproductive organs] raised in a different context than you. This doesn't make one of us better than the other, it just makes us different from one another. But what Adria has done here, and why I think it is so damaging to what I cons…

I would not have reacted as she did. I would have tuned it out nothing or spoken to them privately. And I know that a lot of women, including me, would have not have been offended at all. But there have been times when I've told guys (that I know) that even though I wasn't offended by what they just said, some women would be. I don't tell them not to say it; I just give them a heads-up.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#390

Post by Steuard »

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

"Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women."

And I'm furious with how badly the comments here and elsewhere portray men. The worst are the threats of violence that I've heard that she's gotten, of course. I know that's a minority behavior, but we can't kid ourselves: the people making those threats are only comfortable doing so because they see the rest of the community as being "on their side".

Women (and men!) need to speak up when they see manifestations of the culture that continues to drive women away from tech. Would I have made the same judgement in this case? Maybe not. But we need to find some way of changing the "bro" culture on display here, and I can't really blame her for trying.

"What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next?"

If 1) you choose to say something 2) in a public place that 3) your employer considers grounds for termination, I think you should probably be worried no matter who's in the room. I personally don't think that public shaming is the best way to respond to low-level offenses as in this case (but then, I really wouldn't fire someone over it: that seems like 100x as much of an overreaction). Nevertheless, it's unreasonable to expect in this day and age that transgressions in public will always go unnoticed. If you knowingly say something that you deserve to be fired for, it's not the photographer's fault when it happens.

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