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PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

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Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#321

Post by pekk »

niggler wrote: post #230
SeanDav wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you have good hearing and/or are incapable of focusing on something else does not make the conversation less private. A private conversation is one that is intended to occur only between the parties involved. Your being able to hear it or not is irrelevant if the intention and expectation was that the conversation is meant to be between specific parties. I understand this is not completely black and whit…

"A private conversation is one that is intended to occur only between the parties involved." What are your thoughts on the Romney 47% remark? (that was recorded by a bartender at the event)

If you run for public office and believe that everyone who [correction: doesn't] vote for you is sub-human, that is a reliable indicator of how you will treat the people who didn't vote for you.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#322

Post by lopatin »

alxp wrote: post #317
lopatin wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between reading someone's Twitter stream and hearing someone's joke while sitting in the audience at a convention. I've pondered this myself and, at least in this situation, I disagree. How can it be a fireable offense to make a penis joke in a room where a few people may overhear it, while it being completely ok to tweet the penis joke to the whole room? I know you would only receive the joke if…

> How can it be a fireable offense to make a penis joke in a room where a few people may overhear it You should take that up with the people who did the firing. The only thing that happened at PyCon was that the organizers told them to knock it off and they did.

That's fine, you can change 'a fireable offense' to 'unacceptable' or in her own words 'not cool'. My point and Adria's hypocrisy still stand.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#323

Post by pekk »

tomjen3 wrote: post #251
shocks wrote: post #135

The problem is not PyCon. This is not an issue that should be solved by changing a code of conduct. This is a problem with a person and her over zealous and ridiculous actions. Let's be clear here, there should be nothing wrong with making dick jokes to your friend. Did he say "Haha, look at these dongles. They look like dicks. But we don't need them because have dicks! Maybe they should give these to the women so th…

It seems that of late sex (or talk about sex) = sexism. Well no wonder then, that we can't have decent penis joke no more.

Let it not be forgotten that talking about sex in the wrong way in the wrong context actually is abusive.

If they were talking about Adria's body parts, or what they would like to do to Adria. Or propositioning her for sex. Or saying "hey baby" to her. Or trying to start a creepy conversation with her about her sex habits. These are among astronomically many possible examples of how you can talk inappropriately about sex to someone.

As a general rule, don't talk about sex to strangers, if you can't pick up any pattern of what is abusive or not.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#324

Post by tomjen3 »

pekk wrote: post #323
tomjen3 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that of late sex (or talk about sex) = sexism. Well no wonder then, that we can't have decent penis joke no more.

Let it not be forgotten that talking about sex in the wrong way in the wrong context actually is abusive. If they were talking about Adria's body parts, or what they would like to do to Adria. Or propositioning her for sex. Or saying "hey baby" to her. Or trying to start a creepy conversation with her about her sex habits. These are among astronomically many possible examples of how you can talk inappropriately about…

Ah, but then they would be talking about her, not about sex.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#325

Post by alxp »

lopatin wrote: post #322
alxp wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can it be a fireable offense to make a penis joke in a room where a few people may overhear it You should take that up with the people who did the firing. The only thing that happened at PyCon was that the organizers told them to knock it off and they did.

That's fine, you can change 'a fireable offense' to 'unacceptable' or in her own words 'not cool'. My point and Adria's hypocrisy still stand.

OK, let's give it a try:

"How can it be not cool to make a penis joke in a room where a few people may overhear it"

Since it is against the PyCon CoC, pretty easily.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#326

Post by hackinthebochs »

jackowayed wrote: post #272

There are some things people in these threads are chronically getting wrong. First, lots of people are making the claim that this was a "private" joke. It was not. If it was a private joke and they shouldn't be punished for that reason, then they should have been able to say anything , and as long as everyone who was meant to be in the private conversation appreciated it, it would be wrong to punish them because it w…

> "Let's lynch a "? They likely would have been kicked out and no one would have much sympathy for them. Why? Because it's not in private.

Your point about the n-word is wrong. Being private has nothing to do with it. It is using the word at all, and the type of person that using such a word implies, that would cause the huge backlash. It wouldn't matter if someone were secretly recorded in their own house making that joke and then publicly outed on youtube--they would still be fired/shunned etc. Public vs private has nothing to do with it.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#327

Post by alxp »

nonrecursive wrote: post #22

I applaud the PyCon organizers for clearly delineating what is acceptable behavior and what is not. I especially applaud them for including public shaming in the "unacceptable" category. The rest of their code is there to protect conference goers. The sections discussing harassment are there for a reason - harassment is a real problem at these events. Similarly, conference goers should be protected from the threat of…

> There could just as likely have been a strong, dangerous reaction to the men who made the comments.

'dangerous'? Really? Are people who fight against sexism really 'just as likely', is in, have displayed a pattern of the same behaviour in the past? Or is this a false equivalency?

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#328

Post by EvanKelly »

LockeWatts wrote: post #294
EvanKelly wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also can't ignore the history and social dynamics of women at tech conferences. There's a sordid history of misogyny at these things. I remember just last year reading horrible accounts from either blackhat or defcon (can't remember which). I understand PyCon is almost certainly of a different breed, but the history can't be overlooked in this situation.

It was Defcon, but I can't see how what happened there is any way related to what happened here. "People have treated women badly at tech conferences before, thus it's perfectly valid to overreact and ruin the career of a guy who did nothing wrong" What?

You're putting words in my mouth.

Just as Adria didn't know the history of the guys behind her (for example, the nature of the forking joke), those guys need to understand that while no one else may have been actively participating in their conversation, their talk can still effect those around them.

I absolutely do not comprehend how so many posters here can place the blame firmly on one side or the other for how things transpired. Neither side handled this perfectly, failure to acknowledge that someone could hold a differing view than you on what is "offensive" or "sexist" or an overreaction is a very close-minded stance to take (I'm not speaking to you particularly on this, since I haven't looked at your other posts)

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#329

Post by lopatin »

alxp wrote: post #325
lopatin wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, you can change 'a fireable offense' to 'unacceptable' or in her own words 'not cool'. My point and Adria's hypocrisy still stand.

OK, let's give it a try: "How can it be not cool to make a penis joke in a room where a few people may overhear it" Since it is against the PyCon CoC, pretty easily.

We're talking about two different things. I made no mention of PyCon rules because the sexual joke was clearly against their rules. What I'm talking about is Adria's double standard for what is offensive and what is not. So lets try this again:

"How can it be not cool to make a penis joke in a room where a few people may overhear it, while it being cool to tweet the penis joke to the whole room?"

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#330

Post by nonrecursive »

alxp wrote: post #327
nonrecursive wrote: post #22

I applaud the PyCon organizers for clearly delineating what is acceptable behavior and what is not. I especially applaud them for including public shaming in the "unacceptable" category. The rest of their code is there to protect conference goers. The sections discussing harassment are there for a reason - harassment is a real problem at these events. Similarly, conference goers should be protected from the threat of…

> There could just as likely have been a strong, dangerous reaction to the men who made the comments. 'dangerous'? Really? Are people who fight against sexism really 'just as likely', is in, have displayed a pattern of the same behaviour in the past? Or is this a false equivalency?

Let me put it another way. Do you think that every conference goer should behave the way Adria did? Whenever a conference goer feels offended, he or she should immediately take photos, publish them on Twitter and on a blog post along with insults like "asshat" and otherwise humiliate the individuals as publicly as possible?

The reason I ask is so I can figure out whether you're debating whether it's OK to publicly shame people in this manner, or whether you're quibbling over the degree of risk you're exposing someone to when you publicly shame them the way Adria did.

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