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I’m done with the web

randyluecke.tumblr.com

191–200 of 291 posts

Re: I’m done with the web

#191
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I see someone talking about using JavaScript as working "on the raw metal" I die a little bit inside. I'm joining OP's web haters club, if he starts one.

" I die a little bit inside. " Every time I hear a programmer condescend towards other programmers for using a higher level language, I also die a little bit inside. How is javascript not the "metal" of the web? It's a core part of the modern web experience upon which many libraries and frameworks have been built. I don't understand why that analogy is bad and is worthy of your condescension. Are you just being conde…

PFFFT!

A language interpreted at runtime, by an application that runs inside an operating system (which may or may not be virtualized) that boots into protected mode. Let me get this straight, you're ostensibly describing this as being "bare metal"?

Have you ever heard the terms "kernel mode" or "ring zero"?

Oh wait, you qualified it as "the 'metal' of the web"... so it's an "analogy". Sorry to be pedantic, but when people say "bare metal" in the context of platform virtualiztion, "bare metal" literally means just that. The executable code is compiled into binary that directly correlates to the copper wires (and etched semi-conductors, or perhaps even vacuum tubes) of the specific, real, tangible machine intended to execute the code. JavaScript is nothing like this.

Maybe the packets and datagrams of transmission protocols are the "bare metal of the web", but JavaScript most certainly is not.

Check out the Communication Systems OSI Model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model

I'd contend that nothing above Layer 4 could be considered analogous to "bare metal".

Re: I’m done with the web

#192
post #2

> The community has tossed out everything we’ve learned from the last 30 years of building applications in favor of being able to put something together quickly with complete disregard for maintainability or extendability. That's spot on. You can add in to that that all the lessons of the process of developing software have also been discarded and are slowly being re-learned. It is as if with the birth of the web the…

It is as if with the birth of the web there was a complete reboot of the IT industry The web won. It fought a battle against many foes, and it came out on top. Re-read that again and seriously think about it, because comments such as yours don't accept that simple reality. Do you contest it? Do you argue that the web somehow circumvented the competition? For 15 years I've been promoting the web with groups that I've…

>The web won. It fought a battle against many foes, and it came out on top.

What utter BS. You are essentially celebrating the victory of consumer commerce, not technology X over technology Y.

Think about it.

There never was any battle between the "Web" and "MFC, Java Applets, Webstart, .NET, Flash, Silverlight". Those thing survive & even thrive in places where nothing else would do. Do you really think everybody in investment banks & brokerages fire up their browser first thing in the morning ? 99% of what they did, do & will continue to do, will continue to be done via native apps - mostly C#, C++, .NET & Java apps. This is just plain reality. It isn't because they are lazy or don't grok the web. Processing realtime trading feeds isn't the browser's strength. Sure I'll show you an iframe with some ticker, equities blotter, trading tickets ...but that's just consumer commerce. I'm soliciting your cash - Here consumer, click on this Buy button, give me your money. After that ? Once you fire off your client request, that's when 99% of the task actually begins, and it ain't on the browser, no siree.

The web is just the tip of the iceberg. Most of the action is below the surface of the water, and that's not the web & will never be.

To your point - the whole idea behind Webstart, Java applets, Winforms, was to mimic the native UI on the web & try to offload as much client-side logic to the client's machine.

Turned out customers didn't like "fat clients" - they wanted textfields & simple input forms, accept their inputs & go away & process the inputs elsewhere.

We said - Hey, you guys have a fast processor & slow network, let's do this one-time applet download/Webstart download/Silverlight app download, & once done, we won't tax your network, we'll just tax your machine. I wrote one of the first equities trading applet for Goldman Sachs. It was a fat client ~100 MB, you actually waited 10 minutes for the install. But it did so much - all the trading rules validation, portfolio construction & computation, everything happened inside that applet. Once the applet downloaded, it felt & behaved like a native desktop app. It was so much more powerful. There was actual science in that applet. It took a doen CS PhDs to build the infrastructure for shipping that. We fucking got dozens of patents...pseudo-realtime trading applet over the web ha ha ha! Today, the interface is so dumb - zero download time - but they hit the network so much harder. Absolutely nothing happens on the client. To check whether a simple trade is valid, you have to hit the server multiple times during the workflow. Customers are ok with it because the network has gotten so much faster. They were downloading ~100MB applets on 56.6k modems, now they have superfast broadband, so it makes sense to hit the server more & do less on the client box. So you just hire an 18 year old & he'll build a polished web UI for the trading applet over a weekend. That doesn't mean all those CS PhDs just up & died. They just migrated to the server side, where all the action now happens.

So this isn't success of the web & failure of the applet - its success of broadband. Network penetration today is massive & ubiquitous. You can place million dollar trades over android. You couldn't do this just 10 years back. At that time, applets were state of the art. In hindsight, the whole exercise appears pointless. 100MB applets WTF, just use underscore dot js & ajax & broadband & a little bit of markup & your trading window shows up on a tiny 4 inch android cellphone. Yeah, true, but we didn't have any of that back then. Cut us a little slack, will ya.

Re: I’m done with the web

#193
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" I die a little bit inside. " Every time I hear a programmer condescend towards other programmers for using a higher level language, I also die a little bit inside. How is javascript not the "metal" of the web? It's a core part of the modern web experience upon which many libraries and frameworks have been built. I don't understand why that analogy is bad and is worthy of your condescension. Are you just being conde…

Well, to start, it's a scripting language, not a compiled language. At least on the web.

Nope, it's (JIT) compiled. No modern browser uses an interpreter anymore.

Re: I’m done with the web

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The web won. It fought a battle against many foes, and it came out on top. It won what , exactly? The war against Gopher for presentation of hypertext documents and information display? There's more to heaven and earth than data presentation and consumption. The examples of genuinely great web applications are few and far between, if not near non-existent. Are Google Apps really the best the web has to offer? Cappu…

There's more to heaven and earth than data presentation and consumption. I do my banking in a browser. I do my email in a browser. I manage photos in a browser. I manage relationships in a browser. I do my taxes in a browser. I order goods in a browser. I ship goods in a browser. I reserve items at the library in a browser. I watch movies in a browser. I listen to music in a browser. I push apps to my smartphone in a…

Actually I do most of that stuff in native mobile application now instead of in a browser.

Do you know why? Because the browser version sucks ass compared to the native version someone has designed for a phone UI. It makes me sick every time I pick up my phone to transfer money in my bank account while I sitting at a computer.

Re: I’m done with the web

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more to heaven and earth than data presentation and consumption. I do my banking in a browser. I do my email in a browser. I manage photos in a browser. I manage relationships in a browser. I do my taxes in a browser. I order goods in a browser. I ship goods in a browser. I reserve items at the library in a browser. I watch movies in a browser. I listen to music in a browser. I push apps to my smartphone in a…

I do my interactions with my bank in a browser, but my bank doesn't do the actual banking in a browser. I could manage my photos in a browser, but I won't do "photoshopping" in a browser. I watch movies in a browser, but I don't edit my home movies in a browser. I listen to music in a browser, but I don't record or mix music in a browser. I push apps to my smartphone in a browser, but I don't develop smartphone apps…

I think you will end up doing every one of those things in a browser.

That browser will probably look less like a browser - since it does everything, it doesn't really need a window.

*Except for your bank doing your banking. Of course it will be offloading the work to a dedicated application. The rest, however, will be browser-based.

Re: I’m done with the web

#196
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" I die a little bit inside. " Every time I hear a programmer condescend towards other programmers for using a higher level language, I also die a little bit inside. How is javascript not the "metal" of the web? It's a core part of the modern web experience upon which many libraries and frameworks have been built. I don't understand why that analogy is bad and is worthy of your condescension. Are you just being conde…

Well, to start, it's a scripting language, not a compiled language. At least on the web.

JavaScript is compiled by every modern browser, in fact it has some of the most advanced compilers that are out there. And the dichotomy of "scripting" vs compiled languages is false. You may be thinking of dynamic and static typing.

Re: I’m done with the web

#197
post #171
post #95

So here is my humble opinion: I discovered Capuccino two years ago. My first reaction was "This is amazing!". I need to learn another language, framework and stuff. But I thought that's the price I pay. There were three things that pulled me off, though. 1. It's buggy (or was buggy). I don't remember the details, but I couldn't setup few things because of bugs and the community was not there to help. 2. It's SLOW. Un…

It was number 2 that just turned me off right now. Went to look at some of their demo apps and was met with a loading screen for 10 seconds before anything happened. Not sure about everyone else, but I know my users are not going to stick around long enough to even see the app.

I have a slow machine for now (2009 MBP), and Cappuccino is dog slow on it. I'd try it again in a heartbeat once I get a faster machine, but for now, it's literally (and I'm using that word right) unusable. A 30+ second delay after I save a simple interface in Xcode and the changes compiling. It's just frustrating. But if the turnaround time was less than a second, I think I would love to use something as "well-thought-out" as Cappuccino.

Re: I’m done with the web

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I noticed that the fully native Java was a big selling point on H2. Admittedly, I'm not doing much Java these days (slight understatement), but I was under the impression that the Java interfaces to SQLite were fairly mature? Top two links in Google go to a very informative SO answer with lots of options and SQLJet. Bad sign though that "apt-cache search sqlite | grep -i java" gives no results on Debian stable. I'll…

H2, more than anything else, is great for testing. It can emulate oracle and DB2 syntax, among others, to allow us to reasonably approximate a running system on our own machines, then test against the big database (which is much slower) at a later stage. Fully native java and an in-memory implementation mean that we can very quickly implement it in our systems.

I second this. We use H2 in our JUnit test cases a lot, because it is the fastest open-source in memory Java DB (tests are finished very fast).
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