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I’m done with the web

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171–180 of 291 posts

Re: I’m done with the web

#171

Post by bunkat »

csomar wrote: post #95

So here is my humble opinion: I discovered Capuccino two years ago. My first reaction was "This is amazing!". I need to learn another language, framework and stuff. But I thought that's the price I pay. There were three things that pulled me off, though. 1. It's buggy (or was buggy). I don't remember the details, but I couldn't setup few things because of bugs and the community was not there to help. 2. It's SLOW. Un…

It was number 2 that just turned me off right now. Went to look at some of their demo apps and was met with a loading screen for 10 seconds before anything happened. Not sure about everyone else, but I know my users are not going to stick around long enough to even see the app.

Re: I’m done with the web

#172

Post by artagnon »

Objective-J and this insane Cocoa worship? Are you serious?

Try to understand that the desktop and web are two completely different things. I would not want a UI that's designed ground-up for the desktop on my web browser. It's just wrong. I haven't seen Cappuccino myself (I mean, who has?), but stuff like GWT is just broken. HTML/ CSS/ JS exist for a reason: they're simple, elegant, and products of many years of evolution. Sure, there are cross-browser problems, but we're getting tools to deal with them.

Evolution doesn't happen by throwing away existing implementations out of the window, and starting with a fresh slate. Tiny incremental changes that preserve (atleast partially) backward compatibility always win. That is how software engineering (and engineering, in general) works.

Sure, there are a lot of incompetent programmers with the span of a housefly in the world, and a lot of "web people" are people- what does this "general truth" have to do with anything? More importantly, why does it annoy you?

Re: I’m done with the web

#173

Post by pablasso »

Irregardless wrote: post #149

> Google Now is one of the most exciting pieces of technology I’ve seen in a long time. It’s solving problems that couldn’t be solved four years ago. Showing people sports scores and traffic reports before they ask for them? Well, at least that gives us an accurate picture of your perspective (or lack thereof). The Galaxy Nexus is the best phone I've ever used or owned, but I couldn't possibly care less about Now. It…

That's shortsighted, this is what Google Now, can do.. well, right now. But in the future it will be extended to make your life easier, i.e tell you when you get close to a cinema that is displaying a movie of a director that you like, telling you that this near theater is performing a show that you really liked 2 years ago, etc.

Re: I’m done with the web

#174

Post by PeterisP »

corresation wrote: post #82
pifflesnort wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The web won. It fought a battle against many foes, and it came out on top. It won what , exactly? The war against Gopher for presentation of hypertext documents and information display? There's more to heaven and earth than data presentation and consumption. The examples of genuinely great web applications are few and far between, if not near non-existent. Are Google Apps really the best the web has to offer? Cappu…

There's more to heaven and earth than data presentation and consumption. I do my banking in a browser. I do my email in a browser. I manage photos in a browser. I manage relationships in a browser. I do my taxes in a browser. I order goods in a browser. I ship goods in a browser. I reserve items at the library in a browser. I watch movies in a browser. I listen to music in a browser. I push apps to my smartphone in a…

I do my interactions with my bank in a browser, but my bank doesn't do the actual banking in a browser.

I could manage my photos in a browser, but I won't do "photoshopping" in a browser.

I watch movies in a browser, but I don't edit my home movies in a browser.

I listen to music in a browser, but I don't record or mix music in a browser.

I push apps to my smartphone in a browser, but I don't develop smartphone apps in a browser.

In general, I communicate or consume in a browser, but the worthy things - the creation - tends to happen outside of it.

Also, don't forget that all the things that consumers might ever see are just the tip of the iceberg - the vast majority of software and hardware development is done not for B2C apps/websites but for solutions that are B2B, business-process-internal or hidden in an appliance, never seen by any consumers.

Re: I’m done with the web

#175

Post by rocky1138 »

criley wrote: post #166
georgemcbay wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I see someone talking about using JavaScript as working "on the raw metal" I die a little bit inside. I'm joining OP's web haters club, if he starts one.

" I die a little bit inside. " Every time I hear a programmer condescend towards other programmers for using a higher level language, I also die a little bit inside. How is javascript not the "metal" of the web? It's a core part of the modern web experience upon which many libraries and frameworks have been built. I don't understand why that analogy is bad and is worthy of your condescension. Are you just being conde…

Well, to start, it's a scripting language, not a compiled language. At least on the web.

Re: I’m done with the web

#176

Post by IheartApplesDix »

martinced wrote: post #11

There's no way yet another webapp framework, no matter how close it emulates the desktop, is going to gain lots of traction when it mandates users to use... Objective-J and JavaScript. Seriously: being on your high horses and all is fine and well but your article is an oversimplification as to how the web works and as to what devs need and want. For example lately I've been very interested in flapjax (FRP UI) and web…

But... Google New Thing!

Re: I’m done with the web

#177

Post by boucher »

cromwellian wrote: post #158
zoul wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem with Web Development today, IMHO, and the biggest reason why people desire Widget frameworks in the first place, is that the modern browser rendering pipeline is too complex for most people to understand. It’s a huge mistake to consider Cappuccino a “widget framework”. Cappuccino’s main point is providing the whole “web development stack”. You don’t have to care about browser differences, about DO…

I understand how Cappuccino works (I am one of the GWT authors, and I often have to tell people the same about GWT, is it not a "widget framework"), but what I'm saying is, from what I observe, people often spend more time debugging CSS and HTML than they do code. There are lots of reasons why JS needs fixing, I'm onboard with that. But honestly, you could fix it 100%, and it would still be easier to develop native a…

It's a shame that 280 Slides is no longer online, because I'd love to be able to challenge your performance assertion.

Back when we released it, in 2008, browsers were a hell of a lot slower than they are now. And even then, 280 Slides launched faster than PowerPoint or Keynote on our machines, and had comparable runtime performance with manipulating objects on the slide. Of course, we did not have many of the most resource intensive Keynote features like 3D animations, but I don't think that's what you meant.

Re: I’m done with the web

#178

Post by boucher »

mjmsmith wrote: post #167
thiagoperes wrote: post #98

I really liked Cappuccino. Great features and 280 Slides was/is awesome. I follow its development for quite a long time. Why didn't I use it? - As a complete noob, I found it hard to start (despite having good objc knowledge) - I checked the objj github language page, and didn't saw a lot of activity - Last but not least, Atlas, a Cappuccino IDE was supposed to be released. I tried contacting Tolmasky about where the…

"Never got s response" was pretty much the story of what happened to the (not free) Atlas beta. I suspect a certain number of people were just turned off by the way that was handled. (Yes, I realize that Cappuccino is a separate project.)

Yeah, I'm sorry about the way it played out too. Unfortunately, a lot of that was out of our hands.

Re: I’m done with the web

#179

Post by prodigal_erik »

crazygringo wrote: post #44
jacquesm wrote: post #2

> The community has tossed out everything we’ve learned from the last 30 years of building applications in favor of being able to put something together quickly with complete disregard for maintainability or extendability. That's spot on. You can add in to that that all the lessons of the process of developing software have also been discarded and are slowly being re-learned. It is as if with the birth of the web the…

I disagree. Web programming can be fundamentally different from application programming. Application programming tends to be far more complex, far more planned, and far slower. Applications last for years and years, and new releases might take multiple years. Whereas web programming can be extremely experimental, prototype-y, with multiple releases a day . It's also vastly faster to program. This isn't an argument ag…

"Cool URLs don't change." Quickly fixing my server is great and all, but the fact that I can push a button and instantly break millions of hyperlinks is a fundamental problem with the architecture of the web.

Re: I’m done with the web

#180

Post by particlewave »

corresation wrote: post #35
jacquesm wrote: post #2

> The community has tossed out everything we’ve learned from the last 30 years of building applications in favor of being able to put something together quickly with complete disregard for maintainability or extendability. That's spot on. You can add in to that that all the lessons of the process of developing software have also been discarded and are slowly being re-learned. It is as if with the birth of the web the…

It is as if with the birth of the web there was a complete reboot of the IT industry The web won. It fought a battle against many foes, and it came out on top. Re-read that again and seriously think about it, because comments such as yours don't accept that simple reality. Do you contest it? Do you argue that the web somehow circumvented the competition? For 15 years I've been promoting the web with groups that I've…

It just happened to be that all browsers adopted HTML/CSS/JS and now we use that as an application platform (despite it being designed for sharing documents). It won because there is no other choice but it kind of still sucks which is why there is so much complaining about it.
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