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I’m done with the web

randyluecke.tumblr.com

131–140 of 291 posts

Re: I’m done with the web

#131

> The hilarious obsession with file size is the start of my frustrations with the web community. It's not so hilarious if you're the one paying for bandwidth when hundreds of thousands of users are accessing your SSL site each day. Or if you're desperately trying to pull one page up quickly while on your smart phone in a region with sketchy (at best) mobile reception. I'm one of those people who are obsessed with kee…

"What do you mean the page takes a long time to render? Look at one of my monitors, it comes up in less than a second! Yes, everyone has a 6 fucking-hertz video card with 8 gigasnots of memory these days. Well, all my friends do."

Re: I’m done with the web

#132
"This reaction to Ember just baffles me. Your day job is to build a piece of web software and you can’t take a few days to learn the ins and outs? Presumably you’re in a large team because this project is important and will take some time to complete. "

What the hell is this!?

Your day job is to write software, perhaps, but you're going to come across Ember/X new web framework/whatever in your free time first. You're going to try it because you've seen the name floating around and it sounded cool. And - discover that it's impenetrable. That it acts like it wasn't designed for people to learn. That it starts frustrating and stays that way, when you were looking for a fun new project that moves fast and get results. Why would you keep going? Why would you give it time and then force your teammates to do the same thing, when the developer couldn't be bothered to make their software accessible? Why is it worth your time, as a human, to waste effort because someone who wants you to use their software couldn't be troubled to really try?

I don't understand what people are thinking when they create a brilliant, complex piece of software, and don't dedicate concerted effort to making it the easiest thing to learn ever. So - you want people to use your product, but only if the have to suffer? Or - you and your team have talked and decided you want some users, but, you know, definitely not too many, so you make it take a high activation energy to get started.

Software lives and dies by its barrier to entry and documentation. And far too many projects have far too little of both these days.

*I understand Ember is improving, especially after that post. Good! I haven't actually used it; I'm just going off what I read the other day.

Re: I’m done with the web

#133

There's no way yet another webapp framework, no matter how close it emulates the desktop, is going to gain lots of traction when it mandates users to use... Objective-J and JavaScript. Seriously: being on your high horses and all is fine and well but your article is an oversimplification as to how the web works and as to what devs need and want. For example lately I've been very interested in flapjax (FRP UI) and web…

He didn't even mention the Dojo Toolkit. Dojo has all of the challenges Cappucino faces, except that its all Javascript, as opposed to Objective J. Dojo has the awesome table grid, the widgets, all of that. I don't use it anymore, but it was pretty powerful on the project I uesed it on.

Re: I’m done with the web

#134
post #13

A couple of years ago a London based start-up came to me asking for help finding a Cappuccino/Objective J developer. I pride myself at being able to find needles in haystacks but finding a dedicated Cappuccino dev in London was proving impossible. During a moment of desperation I fired a very simple email to Randy asking for suggestions and I got a reply within 24 hours with a few names suggested from the Cappuccino…

The fact that the employer needed someone with prior Cappuccino experience is the bigger problem.

There are a huge number of frameworks out there. Pick one, and then hire people and have them spend a few days learning it.

Adding more and more frameworks leads to, well, relevant XKCD: http://xkcd.com/927/

Re: I’m done with the web

#135
post #93

I tried the Aristo showcase ( http://www.cappuccino-project.org/aristo/showcase/ ), and it took 20 seconds to load on high speed internet connection w/ Chrome browser. I can understand developers' reluctance to use such a framework. If you've marketing a web app developed with Cappuccino, you're going to lose a lot of conversions with that kind of wait.

Is this really written in Cappuccino? I get some crazy graphical glitches when I click any of the buttons or dropdowns on that page. I hope this isn't the quality they were talking about, but I will admit that looks like it belongs in a Desktop app.

Re: I’m done with the web

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more to heaven and earth than data presentation and consumption. I do my banking in a browser. I do my email in a browser. I manage photos in a browser. I manage relationships in a browser. I do my taxes in a browser. I order goods in a browser. I ship goods in a browser. I reserve items at the library in a browser. I watch movies in a browser. I listen to music in a browser. I push apps to my smartphone in a…

> I do my banking in a browser. I do my email in a browser. I manage photos in a browser. I manage relationships in a browser. I do my taxes in a browser. I order goods in a browser. I ship goods in a browser. I reserve items at the library in a browser. I watch movies in a browser. I listen to music in a browser. I push apps to my smartphone in a browser. I get directions in a browser. I find phone numbers in a brow…

The success of the web makes horrifyingly apparent how important ubiquity and ease of deployment are. In they quest for users, they trump almost everything else.

Re: I’m done with the web

#137
As one of the people who worked on GWT, and have used other more structured frameworks (Dart, Closure), I have a strong affinity for systems with good tooling support, a consistent package management and module system, etc

However, I think what's missing is a recognition that there are different kinds of web apps. There are "application" oriented apps, primarily single page, large, and not content driven (gmail, docs, games, etc), and then there are page-oriented apps, like forums, content management systems, blogs, database backed forms/reports, etc.

The former lend them selves really well to the structured approach. You trade off simplicity and iteration speed for more of a "on rails" experience, but it helps for larger teams to collaborate on larger projects to have some restrictions on freedom and some mutually agreed upon consistent behaviors.

However, the latter page-oriented apps fit in a lot better with these microframeworks. And page oriented apps fit in with the original vision of the Web, they are documents, they have URL addressable, RESTful, hopefully, durable content, indexable by search engines, and linkable by anyone.

I think there is room for both and a sweet spot for different approaches. I often use several languages for specially suited purposes, like sed/awk/Perl for text processing, JS for small page oriented stuff or mocks, GWT for larger apps. I would not advocate GWT for people for building progressively enhanced page-oriented apps, even though I'm the author of GwtQuery and AngularGWT.

Using the right tool for the job often depends on context and personal preference. A lone hacker or small team can get by with doing a large app in hand coded JS with hand rolled build tools and module systems, but frustrate other people coming onto the project.

There is too much, IMHO, "one above all" thinking when it comes to development, and often, the original goals -- what the app is supposed to do for the end user, get lost in the zeal to build a cool framework or infrastructure for it.

Re: I’m done with the web

#139
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On top of all that the web is incredibly messy. That is arguably both a bug and a feature. The web is an untended jungle, possibly the most diverse of any technical ecosystem. Democracy and markets are messy too, but I think most of us would rather not give those up.

When it comes to technology messy is not a feature but a drawback. It precludes a very important thing from manifesting itself, reliability. The difference between the backbone of the internet (TCP/IP) compared to the maze that is web development is simply astounding. The amount of hoops you have to jump through to do stuff that was child's play on any computer 20+ years ago just because it is on the web completely b…

I think you're underestimating the complexity of native apps. To duplicate functionality of a web app, you're still going to need to know your networking layer, whatever it is, and you still need to write a server and persistence layer; the only difference is on the client, where instead of HTML/CSS/JS you're building in one language... plus probably a GUI framework (which are not exactly known for their simplicity or ease of use). And there are security issues related to distributing native binaries too. When you say there are tons of extra 'hoops' to jump through, what do you mean?

Re: I’m done with the web

#140
post #32

>Ember is very close to the “micro” side of things, but at a “whopping” 49KB (less than a second download on a dial-up internet connection Chances are that you probably never had a dial-up connection. 49KB on dial-up generally takes around 10 seconds. Besides this point, the accusatory tone towards front-end developers and 'the rest of the world' that did not understand you isn't helping to get your point across. You…

perhaps that's the size of the script uncompressed, and gzip crunches it down to < 10KB? dunno for sure. could be the factor of 8 thing that another commenter suggested.

Ember is 50kb gzipped
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