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PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

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Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#161
I think it's interesting that public shaming isn't the answer to problems, but that a lot of people don't seem to appreciate that.

It's not just Adria. Remember John Scalsi and "When Gut-Boys Attack"? http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/11/14/when-gut-boys-attack/

Same thing. Take a person, smash them publicly, and hope that the everyone watching will get the idea and stop doing that thing, because of fear of similar punishment.

...but, I was under the impression there was a pretty well defined protocol for handling public sorts of hate-speech like antisemitism, and trolling, and that had been shown in all kinds of circumstances not to work.

You get all the same reactions we've seen here; a social reaction against the 'shaming' group to socially prevent similar shaming from happening in the future.

Which totally mitigates the potential benefit of the original action.

The correct responses have always been:

1) Don't engage with obvious trolls. These are a lost cause. You're wasting everyone's time.

2) Speak positively about the topic instead of negatively about the other person

3) Engage with the people who are doing the wrong thing and try to correct their behavior so they become mini-champions of 'the right way' in their own community, thus spreading correct behavioral policy organically.

I thought that this was well known stuff; we certainly covered it in college. I'm boggled by this whole bizaar extravaganza. It's such a cliche.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#162
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as the community hasn't found a way to root those out, our reaction was worthless, rational or not.

I think the most vitriolic reactions have been from non-community people.

Yes, the "activists" who insert themselves to disrupt other communities to promote their own personal infamy.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

She probably didn't want to get them fired. But it's hard to argue that she didn't want to cause them real damage, at the very least to their reputation. And it should be plainly obvious to someone with a media presence that anything negative they say about someone will ripple well beyond that person's own realm of control. Everyone says things in private they wouldn't want their employer to hear. People curse outsid…

> Everyone says things in private they wouldn't want their employer to hear.

That's the difference in this case. The men in question were not in the personal life having a private discussion, they were attending a conference that their employer was a sponsor of and they were marked as being representatives of that sponsor company via their badges. They are already damaging their own and their company's reputation by making dumb sexist jokes at a professional-for-them event.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#164
post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

".. I do NOT believe that ANY conference attendees should have to sit idly by and listen to penis jokes." Nobody need do so. Simply move to another seat.

> Nobody need do so. Simply move to another seat.

Or better yet, tell them to knock it off.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#165

After reading all sides of the story, I see why there is so much anger towards Adria. However, it is unacceptable for her or SendGrid to be attacked digitally. Adria did an arguably right thing in a wrong way at the wrong time. 1. Assuming the way she said it happened is correct, the guys behind her made a sexual (forking/fucking; Dongle/Penis) not sexist joke. If it were even to be seen as sexist, it was towards men…

"However, it is unacceptable for her or SendGrid to be attacked digitally." She could have simply changed seats but chose to use digital methods to publicly humiliate two people, one of whom was consequently fired apparently. "What's good for the gander is good for the goose." BTW isn't this rather Orwellian? Anything you say anywhere can be dredged into view of the public? Is privacy possible anymore?

Well it seems like the other shoe has dropped:

https://www.facebook.com/SendGrid/posts/10151502570463967

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#166
post #27

One of the reasons I've taken an interest in this whole fiasco is that I occasionally make "colorful" jokes. Not dissimilar from the two guys at PyCon. I make every attempt to keep these jokes private between my friends and I, but I'm sure others have heard me make them. Some people might find them funny, others may be offended. It scares me to think that making an offhand penis joke could result in being publicly ou…

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

Their boss finding out what they said got them fired.

You know, we don't actually know what they said. We also don't know for sure why the guy was fired.

It might help to keep these things in mind before yelling "off with their heads" or "off with her head".

For the record, I'm neither defending them nor saying Adria handled it right. I could go on, but I already blogged about it [1] and I'm tired of repeating myself.

[1]: http://beardseye.blogspot.com/2013/03/off-with-their-heads-p...

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's amazing to me is the cognitive dissonance required to make the leap from Adria publicly outing someone (questionable, but not egregious given you know, the public venue) making an off-color joke to 'she got these people fired'. Their boss finding out what they said got them fired. Because what they said wasn't appropriate in the opinion of their employer. Period. Full stop.

Hypothethical example: if a feminist group attacks a company which employs a person, then the company is pressured into letting said person go, because they don't want to get associated with misogy, as that might decrease profit. In that example the feminist group is clearly responsible for the firing of the guy, even though the company technically made the decision. You can't just lay the blame on the company which…

This is exactly what we would expect to happen. Company's that employ and protect people who reinforce misogyny should held accountable for that, although I would argue most groups prefer education and training over discipline and firing for the most common work-related sexism issues.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#168
post #89
post #6

> Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect I think the "out of respect" is unnecessary and somewhat nonsensical. Out of respect for whom? I think it's fine to just say that PyCon, like any reasonable organization, doesn't participate or condone in such public shaming, period...because the reasons to not engage…

True. It's mambo jambo just to make a point that they've dealt with the issue. You know what would be better for the conference? A no pictures policy like defcon. That way,people would not be able to violate others privacy for their own agendas.

Note: "mumbj jumbo" is the term.

"mambo jambo" is incredibly racist against Latinos, but I promise not to try to get you fired over it, or call you an "ass clown"

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#169
There is a certain category of an especially nasty person who loves taking up 'high moral ground', as it is generally promulgated by powers that be of their time, and using it to mercilessly destroy their fellow human beings. They are drunk with evil power and the sheer simplicity of it: just apply a glib label to your victim.

Pagan, heretic, catholic, protestant, blasphemer, republican, communist, anti-communist, racist, sexist....

Nothing new under the Sun. I wonder what will be the next 'in-vogue' label. The labels change but the type of person who is fond of using them is always the same, always nasty.

Re: PyCon Code of Conduct changed to avoid public shaming

#170
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to believe that offense is subjective to the individual. Should we then be responsible for everything we do that offends others? What level of recourse should they have for being offended? If we think that punitive action is appropriate given an offense, how do we determine what a legitimate offense is, versus a non-legitimate offense?

> Should we then be responsible for everything we do that offends others? Yes. > What level of recourse should they have for being offended? If we think that punitive action is appropriate given an offense, how do we determine what a legitimate offense is, versus a non-legitimate offense? If people finding out publicly that you did it would cause you to lose your job, that might be a good indicator.

Well, let's say I'm offended by your username. I'm so offended that I feel the proper punishment should be paying reparations of no less than $1M to the charity of my choice. Is it my offense taken by your username a fair offense? What standard is used to determine what offenses are legitimate, and what determines a proper punishment for that offense. Furthermore, how are you to know in advance that your username is offensive to me?
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