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Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

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Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, Thanks for speaking up, contributing your viewpoint on HN and not attacking me. I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively. For context, I'm a developer evangelist. That means I'm an advocate for developers, male and female. While I hear abou demanding bosses with impossible deadlines for product launch…

Why can't you just turn around and say one of the following: Shhhhh. Take it outside. You're not funny, and I can't hear the talk. I'm going to call the conference police if you don't quiet yourselves. Or something to that effect? If somebody persists after you ask them to quit, fine, blast away.

Of course not. The only logical course of action is to post pictures of them on twitter and get them fired.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#462
post #460

Seriously, Adria (and all of you who are defending her actions)--you got this one wrong; it was a false positive on your sexism scale. As a philosophical Marxist, I count myself among those who not only inherently support gender equality, but are from the thought tradition that started the damn movement. In graduate school, my thesis focused on the Southeast US from Reconstruction through the Civil Rights Act of 1964…

I'd like her to justify: - in what way her accusation is not the moral equivalent of a false rape claim - why it is alright to publish the photo of two people with non-verifiable accusations on a public site, before any form of trial or hard facts have been provided

Rape is a very serious criminal offence. Rape, in the UK, carries a 5 years as a minimum starting sentence, increasing if there are any aggravating factors.

Her behaviour - tweeting a photo of a bunch of people and accusing some of those people of sexual harassment - is unacceptable, but let's not make ridiculous comments comparing it to false rape allegations.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#464
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I hope they realize what a liability they have on their hands. For example, imagine if a developer ACCIDENTALLY looked at her while walking by. Can you say sexual harassment lawsuit? LOL. This woman is bad news.

Can you say sexual harassment lawsuit? LOL. This woman is bad news. This is exactly the type of attitude that perpetuates the idea that a woman should not say or do anything if uncomfortable. see: https://twitter.com/jackdanger/status/314604363614134272

I don't think she shouldn't have said anything. But taking it to the Internet without talking to the guys was her choice.

If someone is making you uncomfortable, you say something. You don't go nuclear just because someone else, somewhere else called you a whore.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#465
post #429
post #360

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I use it because I think it sounds better, not out of whatever you tried to get at in all those screedy words. But you go ahead with your attempt at mind reading.

Using it because it sounds better can sometimes run contrary with the word and its meaning. In this case being confused with a pretty bitchin' New Zealand band. But let's be honest here, with the sprinkling of select phrases in other posts, we both know exactly what you meant and why you used it.

No.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just want to say sorry, I adjust my bra in meetings from time to time. Never realized it would make anybody uncomfortable. I'll try to cut it out.

It doesn't. Anyone who feels "uncomfortable" because of adjusting a bra or underwear or scratching feet is fucking stupid and should not be accommodated.

Does that apply to a guy who adjusts his underwear during a meeting to reposition everything and make himself more comfortable too?

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"However, I must emphatically and proudly express that I do not support the negation and devaluing of women's (as well as ethnic, [other] cultural, LGBT, etc.) rights by way of reactionary countering with a "men's rights" movement." Then you don't support equality. Men have the same amount of gender equality issues (maybe even more) than women in Western countries. "From a historical perspective alone" History has no…

I do, in fact, support equality for everyone, regardless of gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, religion, etc. However, you are very selectively choosing facts to draw a picture in which men " have the same amount of gender equality issues (maybe even more) than women ". Sorry, but you are severely mistaken regarding the relevance of history. It is of primary relevance, because without proper…

>But understanding the root causes of inequalities--as opposed to merely pointing out instances of what appears to be inequality--is where the real work lies.

No, the real work is in removing inequalities. Talking about "root causes" of inequalities is only a method by which one denigrates the actual fight against inequality itself. There are countless deep and abiding inequalities which one can argue back and forth indefinitely about their origins, and this is especially true in questions of gendered inequality. Is this, that, or the other thing responsible? Here's an idea: who gives a shit? I no longer do.

For example, take the issue which finally broke my ability to take feminism: male rape victimization. Where does the purposeful ignoring of male rape victims come from? Feminists (when they admit that male rape victims exist in substantial quantities and deserve to be mentioned) would argue that the gender system produced by the Patriarchy refuses to recognize men as potential victims because that would feminize them and weaken their social position. Men's Rights Activists would argue that it is because our society systematically refuses to recognize male victimhood, period. I think the latter is a better position to take. The simplest explanation is best, and the solution is far clearer: stop that.

>If you're really interested in enhancing equality as a social good, you would do better to champion the cause of equality that is blind to biological and socioeconomic factors

There are issues that require a specificity of gender because they affect a specific gender. Discussing the development of a growth mindset in mathematics does require some discussion of gender because women and girls are much less likely to be encouraged to develop a growth mindset. Discussing rape certainly requires discussion of gender, since rape is considered as a gendered crime and the sex of the perpetrator and victim hugely affect how it is perceived. Discussion of virtually every single issue that the MRM touches upon requires a discussion of gender since they are about gender. When cops choose to apply different standards to men and women, you have to look at gender. Paternity fraud requires that one look at sex in order to be discussed because it only directly affects one. There are times and places where pretending that everything is solved is the optimal solution to a given problem; there are also times and places where it is not.

The idea that one should ignore socioeconomic and biological factors in championing the cause of equality is systematically wrong. Sometimes people suffer specifically because they are men. Sometimes they suffer specifically because they are women. You have to discuss this or you might as well not discuss anything at all.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"However, you are very selectively choosing facts to draw a picture in which men "have the same amount of gender equality issues (maybe even more) than women"." I'm not, really. Feminist discourse is based on the claim that women have more gender issues. They never really argue for that position. I've linked a list of gender equality issues (though my primary source is unfortunately not in English). Here's a book on…

>do women get raped more than men (not in USA) This is very wrong. The link you provide in the original comment is for violent crimes (including rape), not for rape alone. There is little doubt that women are more likely to be raped in the US than men. Here's a relevant study from the Bureau of Justice Statistics: http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1146 "Overall, an estimated 91% of the victims of rape and sexu…

The NCVS uses a funny definition of rape.

""Rape" is defined as forced sexual intercourse in which the victim may be either male or female and the offender may be of a different sex or the same sex as the victim. Victims must be at least 12 years old; victims less than age 12 are excluded from all estimates. Includes attempts and threats to commit rape."

You'd think this would include a woman raping a man with her vagina, right? Wrong. Check it: http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=31

"Forced sexual intercourse means vaginal, anal or oral penetration by the offender(s)."

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#469
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't see how "large dongle" is sexist. I'm glad you take the time to re-educate those around you. It's probably the hardest thing to do, but ultimately the best way forward for everyone. Maybe I'm overly optimistic on the ability of education though. What I find really suspect is her feeling like and calling herself a hero. Her reference to herself as "Joan of Arc". Also going public immediately. I have been…

It creates a sexualized environment, here's a good article: http://geekfeminism.org/2012/10/01/when-sex-and-porn-are-on-... It's hard to understand the "hero" feeling unless you've been quiet and avoided speaking out on similar (and often bigger) events. It feels good to stand up for your fellow females and community, even if you get negative public attention for it. I think more things big and small should be addres…

I can sympathize that creating a hostile environment can be damaging and should be addressed. However, she was listening to a private conversation. These weren't the speakers, they weren't addressing large crowds, they weren't even making jokes publicly online. They were two friends talking amongst themselves.

Which still wouldn't be acceptable, except they weren't actually saying anything offensive per se. Your charge is that they're creating an environment where women feel unwelcome, one in which they feel uncomfortable because it is implied that the audience is male (I'm assuming you agree with the article you linked). But the thing is, the entire audience was composed of males because the entire audience was limited to the one person each man was talking to. It's impossible to make the claim that they're alienating people by creating an implied homogeneous culture when they're speaking privately.

Think about a comparable situation. If a man is reading in a break room with two women talking to each other about how periods suck, are they alienating him? Are they creating an environment in which in which one has to be a biologically typical female under the age of 45 to feel accepted? Or are they just talking about issues which affect them and not worrying about who might be eavesdropping? It should be obvious that it is the latter. The case in which Adria is involved is no different. "Addressing" the situation as she did does nothing but create a polarized, vitriolic atmosphere and makes people less likely to get involved when there actually is real sexism present.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#470
post #404
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your inability to take a joke is dangerous for the public image of whichever company you're evangelizing for. And this after you make "sock down your pants" jokes on Twitter. The irony is delicious. I hope the OP sues you for reproducing his likeness without his permission. PyCon is, after all, a private gathering.

She NEVER had to take a joke. The joke wasn't directed at her and she wasn't part of the group talking. She OVERHEARD them talking. Completely different matter. I, for one, am offended when people eavesdrop me.

They were sitting in the middle of a packed conference hall. It was not a private conversation.
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