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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#531
post #310

What upsets me is not so much that someone posted something on twitter - who cares? But that someone got fired over it. Surely that is the real issue - not so much what Adria did but that some other person decided an (esentially unsubstantiated) tweet from a third party was sufficient reason for dismissal. If nobody got fired there would be no issue here. Let's ask for a response, not from SendGrid, but from whoever…

Not sure how's that in US, but posting someone's picture publicly is in many European countries illegal.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#532

This is a rather bizarre situation. Still, I visited Sendgrid's website to learn more about them. Click on their "We are hiring" link and scrolled down. What did I find? A sexual joke. On their very own company website. See for yourself: http://i.imgur.com/uWc8P39.png And before anyone says anything, the image depicts a person photocopying their genitals. It does not show gender, but the act is quite clear. Not somet…

Oh yeah? Well they have a black woman on the team, so they can't be sexist or racist! /s

Re: The PyCon Incident

#533

Let's be honest, political correctness culture is here to stay. The accused will be accused by the accuser who feels that they are standing up for racial/gender/sexual orientation equality. Then, there'll be a backlash against affirmative action/preferential treatment for those who feel that they are not privileged and have been reverse-discriminated. Publicly shaming this black woman is like condemning a person with…

> just be superficial and PC in public

This sounds like a frightening world. Eh, freedom in America has had a good run.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you really shouldn't have to make politically incorrect jokes and references to make yourself fit in because of your gender. People who feel like they can't be themselves around you because of your gender have other hangups that are unrelated to you. If they truly believe that they can't joke around women, that's a failing of social understanding. It doesn't really matter if the joke was lewd or offensive or if y…

whats your point? I wouldn't have to make politically incorrect jokes and references to make myself fit in if there wasn't a fear of offending me and losing their job put there by other women who call foul at the slightest indecency.... And that's the problem,anyone can be offended by anything. while i don't' find the jokes in question personally offensive, there are some things i do that no one could ever guess i wo…

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. My point is that the problem lies somewhere with this weird superstition around women, especially in technology fields. I believe that this weird superstition is perpetuated by sexist ideals or understandings. And I believe that it has nothing to do with you or other women that happen to see it in action like you described, but with the people on the other side. So I guess my point is that shouldn't be your responsibility to make others feel comfortable around you simply because you are a woman. That doesn't logically follow. Similar to how other minorities shouldn't need to make jokes that defame their race or sex in order to fit in with non-minorities.

That aside, this

> I wouldn't have to make politically incorrect jokes and references to make myself fit in if there wasn't a fear of offending me and losing their job put there by other women who call foul at the slightest indecency....

is an irrelevant conclusion to take from this event. You don't have to speak for your entire sex by being politically incorrect just to show you're not "one of those" women or that women aren't all the same. To everyone whose mind isn't stuck in the 30s, that should be pretty obvious.

Also, your argument seems to imply that she should have taken the same action you would've taken, but that is kind of unrelated. She did whatever she felt was right to do at the time because of other concerns. Using phrases like "freak out and make a scene" portray her as this basketcase who has no control over herself, but that isn't exactly what happened. What you would do and what she did are unrelated, because you are two different people with different values. Yet, I'm sure people would love to leverage your argument against hers because you are both women. That just stinks of sexism.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#535

There goes the saying, "innocent until found guilty". So if I were a popular tech individual who decided to tweet about something I may misheard in a bad way, I can actually get someone fired. The company who fired the guys should have done some investigation instead of basing it off tweets. This is ridiculous; this is the number one reason why I never went back to PyCon.

Given the popularity of "perp walks", this doesn't even hold true for actual crimes anymore, let alone this case.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#536
post #200
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultures, and they don't sound like they're great jokes in any culture, but nobody ever told me about the meeting where women decided knob jokes were offensive. In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago.

As assessments of body parts the men's behavior and the Sendgrid developer evangelists's tweets are more offensive to men who are being objectified based on their dongles. The lesser issue still exists, though, of creating a 'sexual environment' where mentions of sex may make people who believe others may wish to engage them in sexual relations may feel threatened.

Come to think of it, Twisted also makes me uncomfortable. Quick, call Jesse Noller and security and escort Glyph out of the building.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try using google: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=single+gender+teams+perf... I grabbed a couple citations while I was there because I was also curious: * http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-0432.00129/a... - "Although generalizations from student-based studies to the workplace is problematic, the results indicate that groups may be more effective when women outnumber or equal men, especially in compl…

From the first paper: >This study has four limitations. First, the sample comprised students only working within fictitious enterprises in hypothetical industries and, as such, may not represent what actually happens in reality. >Second, the sample size was smaller than ideal. >Third, ethnic minorities were not identified among group members ... non-European individuals were present, but comprised less than 10% of th…

Please feel free to cite studies with better methodologies! I merely cited what I found on a cursory search. I entirely agree that the methodology of the studies is limiting, however at the moment, the only evidence I've discovered points towards the position you made the following assertion about:

> We all know that you can't provide any evidence to back this up. What is your agenda? Why do you think we are stupid?

The assertion you made is that there was no evidence to support pencilcode's assertion that gender diverse teams perform better. I believe this assertion is false, the top results of a cursory search that I made out of curiosity provided evidence which supported pencilcode's position.

However, I of course agree that two papers is hardly conclusive, so feel free to cite more studies if you want to start wading into the pool of evidence available to us on this topic.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#538
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a sane move if you want to discourage the culture that Adria is encouraging. Certainly her employers don't deserve any blame, though.

What culture is that? * Calling people out who violate PyCon's code of conduct? * Following this up by going to PyCon and getting it resolved? ( http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop... ) Are we really arguing that people should keep silent when things like this happen? When a rule is violated? That they should only respond after it's taken place? Is that what people are really asking for?

no one is arguing about that, it seems to be more the culture of publicly shaming people for things that are well below the level of what should be.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Somebody they sent to a conference, who was representing their company there, went on a personal vendetta against somebody and got them fired. I went back and looked at Adria's comment (conveniently not quoted), and you're completely misrepresenting the situation. She didn't have a vendetta, she didn't try to get them fired. She simply asked that someone talk to them about the language which made her uncomfortable.…

And then she took their picture and posted it on Twitter.

[deleted]

Re: The PyCon Incident

#540
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech (in the United States, according to the Constitution and historical rulings of the Supreme Court) is freedom from government intervention in political and artistic speech, not permission to make lewd jokes and be free of private or personal consequences.

One country doesn't define freedom of speech.

So, uhm, you want freedom of speech to apply to private-private relationships? How would that work?!
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