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"Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

discuss.emberjs.com

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Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#181

Post by trek »

marbletiles wrote: post #174
trek wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In any other venue, I would 100% agree and would not have responded this way. Delvarworld's tone is totally mild and in keeping with typical internet culture. But Discourse's goal is to raise the bar. Significantly. They blog rather eloquently about it http://blog.discourse.org/2013/03/the-universal-rules-of-civ... And new topic posters are asked to keep that high standard in mind when posting. I'm sure his sarcasm w…

So what you're basically attempting is the Discourse equivalent of a StackOverflow "This question is offtopic" thread-close. Good job. What you're attempting is amateur anger management. It doesn't work like that. Your approach is almost classically designed to escalate tensions, not defuse them.

It's probably relevant to note that we haven't heard from delvarworld, who I reached out to personally explaining in greater detail why I was opting not to reply and what we could do to create a discussion we'd both want to participate in.

You're only seeing the brief, public acknowledgement that I wouldn't participate despite being called out with an @ reply.

The tension only escalated when people from HN decided to chime in.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#182

Post by pixelhandler »

I would like to say "nothing is easy"; a mentor taught me that long ago. Also, when I read on the Ember home page that Ember is for building ambitious web applications, right a way I though I better read all the docs, the source code, and the tests to get to know what Ember does.

Since nothing is easy I would say that the Ember community is totally aware of that and very helpful. I was very impressed by the guides and the api docs. Reading the Ember source and especially the tests has helped me to begin to understand how Ember works.

For me getting started with Ember was not about completing a TODO app or just watching a tutorial video and then pounding out some code. But instead has been about studying existing applications like the Discourse application or the Travis app. I recently say I sweet Emberpress app much like the iOS app "Letterpress" and was amazed at how well the code just makes sense.

Getting started with Ember takes ambition and IMHO is well worth the investment.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#183

Post by jaggederest »

trek wrote: post #172
tomku wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but feel that you're doing an excellent job of proving that a single short, civil post can do more damage to the community than any amount of slight sarcasm. If "absolute civility at all costs" is the basis for Discourse, I'd much rather try to have high quality discussions elsewhere. Edit: The link you provided has "responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content" as part of a list of things t…

Which is why I opted to say "I'm sorry, I cannot respond".

Can't you see that that, in itself, is a response?

To not respond would be to not post at all.

Edit: After reading the FAQ you linked elsewhere, your response is explicitly tone-based and unhelpful. I believe that violates the polite discourse rule more than anything the original poster said.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#184

Post by slantyyz »

pekk wrote: post #151
electic wrote: post #64

People rave about node.js and kock ruby. People rave about ember and knock backbone. But when it comes to building apps, the tried and true approaches are the best I've found. There is plenty of documentation online and that really helps when you are starting out. When I gave ember a whirl, the lack of documentation, forums, or just anyone using it -- outside a core group -- was very disturbing.

Erm, backbone is not exactly trivial for fresh newbies to learn...

That might be true, but the documentation is fairly comprehensive and well done. The docs were indispensable for me when learning how to use it.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#185

Post by vanderZwan »

k__ wrote: post #56
vanderZwan wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm studying interaction design in Sweden at the moment. This is exactly the point they're drilling into our arrogant heads: you're not a genius, listen to your users. And then you actually have to convince your clients that they are not geniuses, that being an expert can also make you blind to things, and that they need to listen to their users. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_design

True story. I've seen 2 extremes in my career: 1. The "product makers" think they know everything and force the users to do it the way they want. This often results in a bad to use product. 2. The "product makers" think the user knows best and do everything the users say. This often results in a too specific/unflexible product.

Oh, absolutely. It basiclly comes down to having a proper dialogue instead of one party dictating to the other what to do. It's just that in practice nr 1 seems more common.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#186

Post by tomku »

trek wrote: post #172
tomku wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but feel that you're doing an excellent job of proving that a single short, civil post can do more damage to the community than any amount of slight sarcasm. If "absolute civility at all costs" is the basis for Discourse, I'd much rather try to have high quality discussions elsewhere. Edit: The link you provided has "responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content" as part of a list of things t…

Which is why I opted to say "I'm sorry, I cannot respond".

You chose to respond to the tone of the post while ignoring the content, while simultaneously claiming that you aren't actually responding. That's both annoyingly passive-aggressive and exactly the opposite of what the Discourse guidelines encourage.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#187

Post by mgrassotti »

Since my old stackoverflow answer was referenced in this topic , i've updated it to include a MVP QuickStart Guide. Hopefully this helps delvarworld and others get started with ember. Feedback welcome :-) http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14204674/how-to-architect...

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#188

Post by rxcfc »

adamnemecek wrote: post #175
wycats wrote: post #80

I totally agree that our getting started story could be much better. In fact, it's our primary focus as we move towards 1.0. Specifically: * We're actively working on a Getting Started Guide with live examples that walks the user through building a new application from scratch. * We're continuing to improve our guides to talk through areas that might be confusing for new developers, like the naming conventions[1] we…

Another thing that would really help Ember's popularity are screencasts, something like egghead.io, where you'd show off some more advanced stuff. I know that they'd probably be a lot of work to make and to keep up to date, but they are pretty invaluable for getting users up to speed. And the time spent doing these is an investment, you guys would spend less time answering questions and you'd probably have more commi…

There are a few Ember screencasts: https://peepcode.com/products/emberjs http://railscasts.com/episodes/408-ember-part-1 http://railscasts.com/episodes/410-ember-part-2

Unfortunately, both cost money at the moment but I've heard they're worth it.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#189

Post by skarmklart »

vanderZwan wrote: post #43
joshstrange wrote: post #27

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

I'm studying interaction design in Sweden at the moment. This is exactly the point they're drilling into our arrogant heads: you're not a genius, listen to your users. And then you actually have to convince your clients that they are not geniuses, that being an expert can also make you blind to things, and that they need to listen to their users. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_design

Where in Sweden are you at?
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