A decent screencast:
http://toranbillups.com/blog/archive/2013/03/02/emberjs-rc1-...
"Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't
171–180 of 252 posts
Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
In any other venue, I would 100% agree and would not have responded this way. Delvarworld's tone is totally mild and in keeping with typical internet culture. But Discourse's goal is to raise the bar. Significantly. They blog rather eloquently about it http://blog.discourse.org/2013/03/the-universal-rules-of-civ... And new topic posters are asked to keep that high standard in mind when posting. I'm sure his sarcasm w…
I can't help but feel that you're doing an excellent job of proving that a single short, civil post can do more damage to the community than any amount of slight sarcasm. If "absolute civility at all costs" is the basis for Discourse, I'd much rather try to have high quality discussions elsewhere. Edit: The link you provided has "responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content" as part of a list of things t…
Which is why I opted to say "I'm sorry, I cannot respond".
Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't
#173Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…
I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…
> create a place where civil discussion can take place to improve Ember.js as a framework. ... Delvarworld's tone strayed into territory I don't think remains civil because of his use of sarcasm: "are you serious?"; "oh god this is going to be fun, isn't it?";
"3 more results linking to the first dead article! FANTASTIC!" ... I don't feel that I can be helpful when people approach with sarcasm. Rather than remaining silent, I let people know I'm happy to engage when we trend towards civility.
@trek, let's check your comment about backbone.js in your excellent "Advice on & Instruction in the Use Of Ember.js"[1]:
“Ever run into zombie events in a Backbone application? No? You've either not used it for anything big, have Rain Man-like ability to craft software, or are fucking shitting me.” -- trek
Your "fucking shitting me" seems somewhat less civil than Delvarworld's "are you serious?" and "FANTASTIC!", but maybe that's just me.
Or maybe it's okay to use that language because it's about Backbone and not about Ember?
PS. I've been actively trying to influence a group to adopt ember.js. Your responses here aren't helping, though your sarcastic and expletive laden advice article was.
1. https://github.com/trek/trek.github.com/blob/4bc36e47a9017be...
Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
You got feedback from a frustrated user, and I'm sure you didn't just dismiss it internally, so why did you dismiss it externally? Listen, I'd love to be able to write what I want, teach what I want, and do what I want without getting sarcastic reviews. But unfortunately people get frustrated and that's how they respond. "Oh, a tmux book? Who needs that?" "You suck" is very, very different from "the thing you built s…
In any other venue, I would 100% agree and would not have responded this way. Delvarworld's tone is totally mild and in keeping with typical internet culture. But Discourse's goal is to raise the bar. Significantly. They blog rather eloquently about it http://blog.discourse.org/2013/03/the-universal-rules-of-civ... And new topic posters are asked to keep that high standard in mind when posting. I'm sure his sarcasm w…
So what you're basically attempting is the Discourse equivalent of a StackOverflow "This question is offtopic" thread-close. Good job.
What you're attempting is amateur anger management. It doesn't work like that. Your approach is almost classically designed to escalate tensions, not defuse them.
Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't
#175I totally agree that our getting started story could be much better. In fact, it's our primary focus as we move towards 1.0. Specifically: * We're actively working on a Getting Started Guide with live examples that walks the user through building a new application from scratch. * We're continuing to improve our guides to talk through areas that might be confusing for new developers, like the naming conventions[1] we…
Another thing that would really help Ember's popularity are screencasts, something like egghead.io, where you'd show off some more advanced stuff. I know that they'd probably be a lot of work to make and to keep up to date, but they are pretty invaluable for getting users up to speed. And the time spent doing these is an investment, you guys would spend less time answering questions and you'd probably have more committers which also saves time (maybe).
Edit: Now that I think about it, aren't DHH's Rails screencasts considered one of the reasons why Rails got as popular as it did?
Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have been following the ember.js community for awhile and also trek. It's this attitude that makes me never want to use ember.js. If you check out his twitter account, you can see countless battles with new people just getting into ember. If you want someone to use your framework, it shouldn't be a verbal battle of passive aggressiveness and other childish antics. He is doing a disservice to the community and the f…
"It's this attitude that makes me never want to use ember.js." Agreed. In fact, I suspect I'll never end up using it, now.
I couldn't agree more. Thanks but no thanks. I hope that was a civil response.
Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't
#177I think that a lot of the kurfuffle viz. trek's response is a forum cultural shear. Trek's site is on Discourse, which has its own stricter rules of engagement that supercede those of the broader FOSS community. The rules on Discourse are moreover reasonable and well-advertised, even if you (or I) find them a touch stilted. It is trek's right and freedom to maintain whatever culture he sees fit on his site.
Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is. http://discuss.emberjs.com/t/todomvc-based-getting-started-g...
Actually, let me clarify: why wasn't a Getting Started Guide/Quickguide/"Hello World" equivalent/etc one of the first written pieces of official Ember.js documentation?
It didn't come earlier because some of the core patterns were still solidifying. It would have been premature to put together something that was likely to change a lot. Now that we've hit RC the API is stable so it makes much more sense.
Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…
> create a place where civil discussion can take place to improve Ember.js as a framework. ... Delvarworld's tone strayed into territory I don't think remains civil because of his use of sarcasm: "are you serious?"; "oh god this is going to be fun, isn't it?"; "3 more results linking to the first dead article! FANTASTIC!" ... I don't feel that I can be helpful when people approach with sarcasm. Rather than remaining…
People can, and do, write in that tone on their personal blogs all the time. I have no issue with it and often in engage in hyperbole for effect in that arena.
The context you're probably missing is that my comment about the expected level of discussion isn't abrupt or coming from nowhere. In this particular venue you are specifically asked to keep the level of discourse higher than is typical on the web at large.
You're asked to do this when you first join and reminded with a summary before you are allowed to create your first two topics: http://discuss.emberjs.com/faq
I reminded the poster that his tone put him below the level of discussion the community has agreed to engage in within this particular space.
Posters can, and do, ignore this all the time and I often go around trying to prod people back towards civility and correct places for types of discussions:
http://discuss.emberjs.com/t/todomvc-based-getting-started-g... http://discuss.emberjs.com/t/ember-computed-halp/388/5 http://discuss.emberjs.com/t/ember-vs-angular/374/5 http://discuss.emberjs.com/t/best-way-to-handle-mongo-couch-...
Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
He was being sarcastic. I'm pretty sure you both agree to the same point.
Fist bump* then. * - or any other commonly accepted ritual interpretable as "we cool, we cool". The cooler the better.
Hmm, I wasn't exactly thinking of it as sarcasm when I wrote it, more pointing out what trek seemed to be expecting, which seemed unreasonable to me. But I guess doing that amounts to the same thing as sarcasm.
Fist bump* in return.