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Diamonds Are Bullshit

blog.priceonomics.com

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Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#161

Post by Helianthus »

quadyeast wrote: post #153
rayiner wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't qualify (3), which is a very important one. I've got a daughter. She's only 4 months old, but I've had occasion to think a bit about this. I would not want her to marry someone who wasn't willing to give her a ring? Why? Reasons (1) and (2) I mentioned, sure, but also reason (3). It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. People who buck social conventions sometimes b…

how about a '$3k donation to redcross' and buying a fake diamond so that all her friends will think you are still part of the herd?

It might as _well_ be fake, just like the value of the diamond she procures.

After all, it's just a matter of her social standing, not the importance of the relationship and a marriage between two human people. I hesitate to use the word soul, but maybe here it applies.

Diamonds are _so dehumanizing_ and this thread would have me thoroughly depressed if so many people weren't arguing against DeBeers.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#162

Post by [deleted] »

Archio wrote: post #155
rayiner wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't qualify (3), which is a very important one. I've got a daughter. She's only 4 months old, but I've had occasion to think a bit about this. I would not want her to marry someone who wasn't willing to give her a ring? Why? Reasons (1) and (2) I mentioned, sure, but also reason (3). It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. People who buck social conventions sometimes b…

> I would not want her to marry someone who wasn't willing to give her a ring That seems like a really shallow and material evaluator of the character of a human being. > People who buck social conventions sometimes become trend-setters and are incredibly successful for it, but more often just make life harder on themselves and the people that depend on them Well thank God that Jackie Robinson, Marie Curie, or Barack…

[deleted]

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#163

Post by mech4bg »

stephengillie wrote: post #5
gkoberger wrote: post #3

Logically and financially, sure... but try telling your fiancée-to-be that.

Try sending her this article. I'd rather be single than marry someone who has so much more emotion than logic. To put it another way: If the ring is more important to the woman than I am, then she's not marrying me, she's marrying the ring. It's a huge red flag to me.

On the list of things that could be wrong in a relationship, wanting a diamond engagement ring is probably pretty low on the things to worry about.

They're not marrying the ring, they're marrying you, but the ring is a signal about your relationship.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#164

Post by quadyeast »

mech4bg wrote: post #149
erikpukinskis wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I find the notion of "man as provider" to be perverse, but if I buy into your worldview for a moment... 1) Your wife can measure how much you can provide just as well by having you actually provide valuable things. Like a house. 2) Your wife can measure your unselfishness by having you buy something that is actually valuable to her but useless to you. Like daycations with her friends. There's no sense in bu…

A diamond ring is a signal that is _always_ showing, unlike something like a house. It's a signal to the world that displays someone's wealth, commitment, etc. This doesn't make it right, but there are numerous human psychology reasons why this tradition endures and so many people take part in it. Writing off people who want or provide a diamond ring as mentally ill (as many people in this thread seem to be doing) is…

That is why in Los Angeles there are many who drive very expensive cars but live in tiny apts.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#165

Post by erikpukinskis »

rayiner wrote: post #154
erikpukinskis wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I find the notion of "man as provider" to be perverse, but if I buy into your worldview for a moment... 1) Your wife can measure how much you can provide just as well by having you actually provide valuable things. Like a house. 2) Your wife can measure your unselfishness by having you buy something that is actually valuable to her but useless to you. Like daycations with her friends. There's no sense in bu…

> Honestly, I find the notion of "man as provider" to be perverse, but if I buy into your worldview for a moment... Why? It is, to this day, even in the U.S., the dominant arrangement between men and women, especially in the context of relationships that result in children. > The need to demonstrate your social standing to other people is the result of low self-esteem. That are very pragmatic reasons to invest in sig…

>Why?

Because I advocate relationships where contributions are granulated and distributed according to participant interest, not participant gender. Monolithic roles like "provider" (and the concomitant role of "consumer/sex object") of are inherently coercive. Because they're monolithic and tied to gender. I think that kind of coercion is perverse.

> That are very pragmatic reasons to invest in signals of social standing

I don't think those signals are meaningfully connected to anything real, they're just signals of standing. They are power begetting power, and I think willfully engaging that system is perverse.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#166

Post by maratd »

kyrra wrote: post #132

(person I know) worked for GE (General Electric) on their industrial diamond production process back in the 90's, and I got to hear lots of fun stories from this. Diamonds that are man-made[1] are stronger (fewer imperfections) than those that are mined from the earth. Because of this, industrial diamonds tend to be man-made. (for reference, industrial diamonds when cutting hard materials, such as metals). While work…

> so they just leave De Beers to run around gouging consumers

That's kind of missing the point. If diamonds were 5 bucks a piece, women would no longer be interested in receiving rings bejeweled by them.

A woman wants a man who is financially secure. If you can't afford a shiny rock, you can't afford what's coming after it either, so there's no point.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#167

Post by gwern »

spydum wrote: post #122
guelo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> women as a whole are swayed more by marketing then men are Either you provide a scientific cite for that claim or that is a straight up sexist statement. In case you haven't heard there's a lot of stupid irrational purchasing behavior by guys too.

Yeah I think this would be a hard conclusion to jump to. There have been numerous papers on the benefits of market segmentation by gender to improve marketing effectiveness due to differences between genders.. But I don't know if any studies that can show with any confidence that one gender is more susceptible overall. It is always broken down by marketing approach (approach x effectiveness by gender). So, it is fair…

I'm not even sure how you would show this. Would you look at total spending by a gender? But that could reflect income-earning differences. Would you look at percentage spent on advertising by a industry targeting a particular gender? But advertising is an arms race which one must engage in as long as the marginal return is >0, and there are all sorts of things affecting this unrelated to gullibility. Would you look at marginal return on advertising dollar split by gender? But this ought to be ~0 for both genders regardless of effectiveness, per previous.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#168

Post by riffraff »

shocks wrote: post #146
rayiner wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It irks me a little bit that the issue is painted as one of "reason" versus lack thereof. There is a rationality in adhering to social convention. My wife is a diamond nerd, as well as one of the most rational people you'll ever meet, and she'd explain it this way: the diamond is a test that serves various useful purposes from the perspective of the woman: 1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demons…

What about a house? All three covered.

I am not sure what you guys buy in the US as engaging rings, but I think one can safely assume a ring is not worth even a tenth of an house?

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#169

Post by [deleted] »

Helianthus wrote: post #161
quadyeast wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how about a '$3k donation to redcross' and buying a fake diamond so that all her friends will think you are still part of the herd?

It might as _well_ be fake, just like the value of the diamond she procures. After all, it's just a matter of her social standing, not the importance of the relationship and a marriage between two human people. I hesitate to use the word soul, but maybe here it applies. Diamonds are _so dehumanizing_ and this thread would have me thoroughly depressed if so many people weren't arguing against DeBeers.

[deleted]

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#170

Post by erikpukinskis »

mech4bg wrote: post #149
erikpukinskis wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I find the notion of "man as provider" to be perverse, but if I buy into your worldview for a moment... 1) Your wife can measure how much you can provide just as well by having you actually provide valuable things. Like a house. 2) Your wife can measure your unselfishness by having you buy something that is actually valuable to her but useless to you. Like daycations with her friends. There's no sense in bu…

A diamond ring is a signal that is _always_ showing, unlike something like a house. It's a signal to the world that displays someone's wealth, commitment, etc. This doesn't make it right, but there are numerous human psychology reasons why this tradition endures and so many people take part in it. Writing off people who want or provide a diamond ring as mentally ill (as many people in this thread seem to be doing) is…

I didn't say they are mentally ill, I said they have low self esteem and therapy might help them.
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