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Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

wired.com

41–50 of 107 posts

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like claiming that you did not pay for your milk unless you also purchased other groceries when your local supermarket uses a loss-leader strategy.

No it's not the same at all. The ads say '$199 with contract .' And the fine print always explains you have to enter into a 2 year contract with the cell service provider, and that said contract will make you liable for early termination fees etc. if you try to skip out of it. For the last decade I've bought my phones unlocked and subscribed to a monthly plan that I can leave at any time. That means paying full price…

"Look, just because it's in your pocket and you get to use it as soon as you leave the store does not mean you own it."

So who owns it? When last I checked, there was no line of credit, I am allowed to sell the phone to someone else without informing the carrier, and I am responsible for repairing any damage or replacing the phone if it is rendered non-functional. It sounds like I paid the carrier's price, signed a contract, and then owned the phone (while being locked into a contract).

There is more to this than just the carrier's contract. Let's say I travel to another country, and I want to pay for a phone plan there so that I do not have to pay roaming charges. I'll need to unlock my phone to do that...and now by law I cannot (at least not here in America). For that matter, suppose I am here in America and I want to have two contracts with two different carriers on the same phone...once again, the law stops me. This is, plain and simple, a law that protects the carriers' business model in ways that other businesses are not protected.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that the free market is relevant here. It is not a free market when some players get special privileges and protections not available to other players. Cell phone companies get lots of special privileges, and this is just one more to add to that list.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#42
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own You don't own a subsidised cell phone until your contract is out.

I don't "own" a car I buy on loan until I pay that off. That doesn't preclude me from replacing seats, putting in a turbo, etc. Why should a phone be different?

Funny that you should mention cars. http://www.righttorepair.org/about/why.aspx

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/01/saab-pulls-the-plug...

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#43

"...once we buy an object — any object — we should own it." Sure, but a purchase often comes with restrictions that you agree to before deciding on the purchase. If you don't agree to the restrictions you can avoid the purchase altogether. I can buy a six hundred thousand dollar house and still not have the right to put a garden gnome on my lawn if I bought in a community with by-laws that prohibit that. "Because man…

The traditional U.S. philosophy on property tends to be skeptical of these kinds of restrictions, and a number of them aren't enforceable, though it's gotten less skeptical lately (hence the emergence of things like homeowners' associations).

European property law was full of encumbrances on property: you could own all sorts of sub-holds and fiefdoms and whatnot. Much of that was thrown out in early U.S. law, in favor of a principle that each plot of land has one owner, who owns it fully in the clear, subject only to the superior sovereignty of the governments with jurisdiction. And then that person can sell the land fully, or rent it, but can't sell the complex kinds of partial ownership and sub-ownerships that were common in the UK. That persisted for a while, until contract law reinvented some of them a century or two later.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#44
post #4

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy locked phones. Once the consumers know the power they have in their hands, change will come easier.

"Vote with your wallet" That gives poor people less of a vote than rich people.

I don't think so. I ended up going with a month-to-month provider int he first place because I was poor and didn't want to deal with the risk of early termination fees etc. I just bought a lower-quality phone. Being poor means that you don't get to buy the nicest thing on the market if you don't have the money.

The economics of contract plans didn't look that good to me, because it meant a much higher monthly bill than I felt comfortable paying for a bunch of features I was not at all sure I would really use or need. I was happy with my decision and have stuck with month-to-month service ever since. Back then, MetroPCS (who I signed with at the time) was a tiny company operating in only 2 or 3 urban markets, now they operate in most of the country.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not the same at all. The ads say '$199 with contract .' And the fine print always explains you have to enter into a 2 year contract with the cell service provider, and that said contract will make you liable for early termination fees etc. if you try to skip out of it. For the last decade I've bought my phones unlocked and subscribed to a monthly plan that I can leave at any time. That means paying full price…

"Look, just because it's in your pocket and you get to use it as soon as you leave the store does not mean you own it." So who owns it? When last I checked, there was no line of credit, I am allowed to sell the phone to someone else without informing the carrier, and I am responsible for repairing any damage or replacing the phone if it is rendered non-functional. It sounds like I paid the carrier's price, signed a c…

Why don't you read your contract and pay particular attention to the bit where it talks about transfer of title? As someone who doesn't sign these kinds of contracts and hasn't for years, I'm not sure what the exact position of the carrier is without downloading and analyzing a phone contract, which I don't feel like doing right now.

The differences from leasing a car are for obvious reasons. If you don't make the payments on a car, a repo guy comes along and takes your car away. Bit difficult to do that on a phone, so they hit you with an early termination fee instead and you agree to it as part of the contract terms.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that the free market is relevant here. It is not a free market when some players get special privileges and protections not available to other players. Cell phone companies get lots of special privileges, and this is just one more to add to that list.

I didn't mention the free market, but since you bring it up, the players within the phone industry have similar privileges. Saying that they get different privileges from, say, auto retailers is pointless, because they're not int he same market. Although I'm no fan of the major cell companies, I could point out that they also bear the burden of paying billions up front for lease of spectrum, whereas manufacturers of cars just have to get the thing running and into the hands of the would-be driver, who then pays over time for road use through taxes on fuel etc.

You want to unlock the phone overseas, then do it overseas where you won't be subject to US law. You want to have two contracts on the same phone, the second one is going to be month-to-month by definition because the second carrier has no property interest in the phone. you can easily get out of your contract by paying the ETF.

As I said elsewhere, I don't like these contractual provisions either, which is why I don't enter into such contracts. I do own my own phone, because I paid for it. This is what people in other parts of the world do, because the rock-bottom prices (with contract!) are not on offer in most other parts of the world.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#46
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't "own" a car I buy on loan until I pay that off. That doesn't preclude me from replacing seats, putting in a turbo, etc. Why should a phone be different?

Since an auto-loan is secured by the vehicle, your lender can and does put conditions on your use of the vehicle. E.g. they may require you to carry full collision & comprehensive insurance on the vehicle even if your state doesn't require it. In this situation, the lender is your carrier, and attaches a different set of conditions.

Based on the first couple Auto Loan agreement contracts that popped up on a Google search, one of the terms is that the borrower agrees to keep the car in good repair and marketable condition. So you aren't allowed to enter it into a demolition derby, I guess.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A contract for 12/24 months of service has nothing to do with ownership of the phone. If you paid for it, it's yours.

But you haven't paid for it. You've typically paid for about 1/3 of it, and agreed to a contract which specifies a 2-year payment schedule for rest as part of your phone bill.

Yes you have. You "paid for it" when you signed the contract, to which you are obligated regardless of what happens to your phone. A mobile phone contract is not a loan; the phone is not collateral. You can't choose to give back your phone in lieu of an early termination fee.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A contract for 12/24 months of service has nothing to do with ownership of the phone. If you paid for it, it's yours.

But you haven't paid for it. You've typically paid for about 1/3 of it, and agreed to a contract which specifies a 2-year payment schedule for rest as part of your phone bill.

If your account is current, it shouldn't make any difference. If your account is not current, there is always the civil court system, debt collection, etc.

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#49
post #9

"...once we buy an object — any object — we should own it." Sure, but a purchase often comes with restrictions that you agree to before deciding on the purchase. If you don't agree to the restrictions you can avoid the purchase altogether. I can buy a six hundred thousand dollar house and still not have the right to put a garden gnome on my lawn if I bought in a community with by-laws that prohibit that. "Because man…

Yeah, the article was over-simplifying a bit. I doubt that Wired thinks I can buy a copy of their (print) magazine and then, since I own it , I can do whatever I want with it (like scanning it and putting it online).

Well of course! That's different.

/petulantchild

Re: Forget the Cellphone Fight — We Should Be Allowed to Unlock Everything We Own

#50
post #22
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm torn on the issue of buying locked vs unlocked. I have a family to support, so I don't have $500 or more to spend on an unlocked iPhone. Even if I had the money, I live in the US, and I haven't traveled outside of the country in over 10 years. Finally, there is no monthly discount on service if you bring an unlocked phone to a carrier, so that's the third strike. I'll continue to buy a new locked device every cou…

Yes, there is a discount. You can buy an unlocked GSM phone and get a SIM only plan that costs half as much as the regular plans. The total cost is cheaper compared to how much you pay over a two year contract.

Where do you buy this plan? AT&T and Verizon are willing to sell me plans that cost just as much as on-contract plans. T-Mobile is willing to sell me much cheaper plans, but randomly loses service all around my city all the time.
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