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It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

sciencebasedmedicine.org

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Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#91

Post by Nursie »

sopooneo wrote: post #59
api wrote: post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

Somewhat to your point, I've found that people arguing alternative vs modern western medicine are often arguing two sides of different issues. Those in favor of modern, evidence based medicine, explain why the scientific method works, and why is superior to superstition. However, those on the other side, having often spent a lot of time among doctors of all types trying to find help for some chronic condition, are ar…

The only problem I have with that is that "modern medicine has been horrible to me" doesn't (if thinking rationally rather than emotionally) automatically lead me to thinking "therefore this other stuff must be better".

I guess that's why I find it so hard to understand.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#92

Post by stiff »

Nursie wrote: post #67
stiff wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is a very common response I get to this - I wonder why, since there is absolutely no evidence for it. You vastly underestimate the number of plants in existence and vastly overestimate the fraction we have been able to study rigorously. You also hugely simplify the chemistry of it all, the main advantage of plants over modern medicine in its typical form is that they contain complex compounds of chemical substa…

"the main advantage of plants over modern medicine in its typical form is that they contain complex compounds of chemical substances which show a synergy in a certain direction" This is such unutterable nonsense. Take Aspirin vs. Willow Bark. Aspirin is derived from substances found in willow bark. Aspirin will cure your headache with a known dose of a substance with a well documented harm profile. Willow bark will c…

You are very aggressive while you clearly do not know what I am talking about and doing a complete straw men. In fact the very same page referenced in this post confirms what I said:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/scientific-evi...

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#93

Post by Udo »

rthomas6 wrote: post #58
Udo wrote: post #22

I'm getting kind of an asshole reputation for always arguing with friends who are deeply into C/AM. But I'm also starting to realize it's exactly like arguing with a religious person - there is absolutely nothing you can say to make them realize their faith is based on fallacies. There is absolutely no correlation between the general intelligence of a person and the ridiculousness of their belief claims. You could be…

This comment comes off as sexist to me. I don't think that more women being involved with C/AM means that a larger proportion of women are irrational. Different things are popular with women and men. A large portion of both men and women are irrational. Just because a larger group of irrational women like C/AM compared to men does NOT mean that there is a larger group of irrational women. Conspiracy theories are irra…

I'm not sure if you're just trolling or whether you're actually responding to the same comment I wrote.

> I don't think that more women being involved with C/AM means that a larger proportion of women are irrational.

At no point did I say or even imply that. In fact, I explicitly countered that notion as it was presented by another commenter.

So my position is kind of the opposite of what you're alleging. Please take the time, go back and read what was actually written.

As an aside, does a maneuver still count as Strawman Argument if the position of the original post is exactly reversed, or is there another term for it in that case?

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#94

Post by amalag »

up_and_up wrote: post #70
Nursie wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything in 'high doses' is a poison, even pure, distilled water. Herbs either contain active chemicals or they're a placebo. If they're a placebo they're as good as taking a sugar pill. If they contain active chemicals they contain unstandardised amounts and probably in concert with all sorts of other things that may or may not be helpful or harmful. Ayurveda is bullshit. QED.

> Ayurveda is bullshit My wife is an Ayurvedic practitioner, so yes I am biased, but I dont believe in every aspect of it. I can definitely say it is not "bullshit" and it is indeed helping many of her clients. She has people who come to her, that conventional docs have literally given up on. "We cant figure out what is wrong with your digestion, theres nothing more we can try" she hears stories like that all the tim…

It doesn't follow the western model of logic, which is why uninformed people who cannot understand subtleties insist on displaying their boarishness.

For instance ayurveda says the stomach has digestive fire, it does not give you a list of chemicals which break down food. Rather it seeks to strengthen that digestive fire. If you want to peek in there with a catheter and say "Nope, there is no fire, ayurveda is bullshit" Well then, best of luck with your clinical trials trying to experiment on the newest medicines. There is value in that.

It is not based on an inductive experimental approach so it does not fit with most western scientists. The idea is it is like an instruction manual, not reverse engineering. The human body was not evolved from some random processes for us to reverse engineer, rather there is an inherent design and ayurveda explains it. People may not agree with those depths of it, but that is the origin and philosophy.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#95

Post by amalag »

Nursie wrote: post #80
amalag wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Water is a poison therefore a system of health you don't understand is bullshit, great logic. I am not going to bother arguing since you want to lump everything together in your clinical trials. "Well gee, if healthy food is good for you, let's extract the chemical from it, inject it into our body and test it, if it is really healthy we will see good effects, otherwise it must be a placebo"

You said that modern medicine is poison if taken in high doses. I pointed out that anything is a poison in high doses. You said that Ayurveda prefers herbs over 'poison' and lumped all modern medicine in with 'poison'. So I pointed out that this is nonsense too. If 'Ayurveda' makes these claims, then I'm sorry but it's full of bullshit. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it really is that simple. Maybe there are othe…

>Anything is a poison in high doses.

I can see that is the limit of your intellectual presentation, good job. Nice to see your nuanced understanding of the health benefits of tylenol vs a bowl of hot cooked rice. I will remember that the next time I am munching on a bowl of tylenol.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#96

Post by fmurdockian »

The paleo movement has long since moved away from "eat what paleoliths ate" to focus on "nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution".[1] Multiple thought leaders (e.g. Chriss Kresser[2] and Robb Wolf) have acknowledged genetic changes such as lactase persistence and changes in iron metabolism that have arisen in the last 10,000 years. Succesful inclusion of dietary grains however, requires fundamental changes in our digestive tract. From Paul Jaminet's "The Perfect Health Diet" pg 196:

"Grasses evolved in concert with grazing mammals: both originated at the same and they became common together. [...] To reproduce successfully despite being regularly eaten, grasses evolved [...] toxic compounds specifically designed to sabotage digestion in mammals. [...] Grazing mammals have evolved defenses for these toxins-for instance, digestive organs such as rumens that allow the brunt of the toxins to be taken by bacteria." [3]

So things like gluten, opioids, agglutinin, and adiponectin trigger autoimmune reactions, neuropathy, accelerate degenerative diseases, and prevent absorption of micronutrients.

I find it ironic OP admits the studies of mummified remains were agricultural societies and then asserts "certainly atherosclerosis was common even among hunter-gatherers." Analysis of modern hunter gatherers and the most reliable accounts of hunter gatherer populations (researchers that actually lived among those they studied) attest to remarkably low occurrences of diseases of civilization while eating diets devoid of grains and high in saturated fat. [4] Rather than a "fascination with the noble savage", paleo eating is about optimizing food quality (i.e. low toxins) and approximating the macronutrient ratios of hunter-gatherer populations. Certainly a segment of the population may thrive on a grain based diet of 70-80% carbohydrate, but that isn't the case for many.

As far as 'science based medicine' is concerned regarding paleo, there is one meaningful study I'm aware of. [5] However, I highly encourage a look at Robb Wolf's recent post,[1] a fantastic summary of the strengths EMB has (antiviral, trauma) compared to the weaknesses (degenerative diseases) and nutrition. He writes that most of what happens in medical practice is based off observation anyway, not double blind placebo controlled RCTs. I'm not against "evidence based" but it's not the only thing out there. Manipulating statistics [6] [7] and noncontextual studies are easily misleading. After experimenting (including a brief bout of vegetarianism) I've been eating paleo for about two years and am the leanest and most energetic I've ever been. The best way to solve the nutrition challenge is to change variables until you are happy with your health.

[1] http://robbwolf.com/2013/03/15/evidence-based-medicine-fraud... My favorite line from this post is "based of this wacky stuff called the best data we had at the time"

[2] http://chriskresser.com/rhr-what-science-really-says-about-t...

[3] http://perfecthealthdiet.com/notes/#Ch19

[4] http://perfecthealthdiet.com/notes/#Ch2

[5] http://www.staffanlindeberg.com/DiabetesStudy.html

[6]http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2013/03/meat-consumption-and-mort...

[7] "The Great Cholesterol Con" by Malcolm Kendrick and "Good Calories Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes are thorough analyses of the problems in the field of nutrition.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#97

Post by thomaspaine »

tcskeptic wrote: post #36

I'm not a Paleo dieter, but I am familiar with the gist of their claims. I do not understand how this study is a response to those claims. The 137 mummies studied are from "Individuals from ancient Egypt, ancient Peru, the Ancestral Puebloans of southwest America, and the Unangan of the Aleutian Islands were imaged." Of those we have 3 agricultural civilizations (Egytp, Peru, Pueblo) and one hunter gatherer (Aleutian…

>Probable or definite atherosclerosis was noted in 47 (34%) of 137 mummies and in all four geographical populations: 29 (38%) of 76 ancient Egyptians, 13 (25%) of 51 ancient Peruvians, two (40%) of five Ancestral Puebloans, and three (60%) of five Unangan hunter gatherers (p=NS).

I think the point is that atherosclerosis was just as prevalent in the hunter gatherer society as it was in the agricultural ones. Sample size is admittedly small though.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#98

Post by CapitalistCartr »

JPKab wrote: post #20

I agree with a lot of what this article says regarding the "naturalistic fallacy",etc. However, this quote is an example of shallow thinking that drives me nuts: "Of course, it’s hard not to note that cancer and heart disease are primarily diseases of aging, and life expectancy was so much lower back in the day that a much smaller percentage of the population lived to advanced ages" Life expectancy FROM BIRTH has ris…

Yes, if you rule out everything that killed people sooner, life expectancy was not too much less.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#99

Post by papsosouid »

stiff wrote: post #9

Calling the "naturalistic fallacy" a fallacy is a bit of an overstretch IMO, sure natural=better is not a rule true 100% of the time, but nevertheless until sufficient evidence has not been accumulated that some of the adjustments we make to our lifestyle are not harmful to us health-wise avoiding them is not an unreasonable heuristic to follow. One example is how it became clear in the last years in nutritional scie…

>sure natural=better is not a rule true 100% of the time

It isn't even a loose correlation. It is no better than random.

>One example is how it became clear in the last years in nutritional science that in general the more processed the food is the more harmful it is for us.

That has not become clear at all, that is something people like to repeat, but is simply a misinterpretation of the recommendation that people "eat mainly unprocessed foods" to maintain a healthy weight. The recommendation is not due to some magical pixie dust inherent in unprocessed food, it is because processed foods are often very high in calories.

>There is also the reverse problem, illustrated by the condescending attitude toward herbalism in this article, of people who idealize modernity, and for example believe only medicine in the form of pills can be effective, even though plants may contain exactly the same chemical compounds.

Except the article had no such attitude, and said nothing like what you are suggesting it says.

>In general I think it is ridiculous to ignore the thousands of years of experimentation and exploration of our ancestors just because it wasn't "science-based".

It isn't ignored. It is studied, and if it is found to actually be effective, it is used. If it is found not to be effective, it is not used. The quack/fraud "medicine" crowd really need to grow out of lying about this. Scientists do not ignore old herbal remedies, they study them.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#100

Post by stiff »

saalweachter wrote: post #72
stiff wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is a very common response I get to this - I wonder why, since there is absolutely no evidence for it. You vastly underestimate the number of plants in existence and vastly overestimate the fraction we have been able to study rigorously. You also hugely simplify the chemistry of it all, the main advantage of plants over modern medicine in its typical form is that they contain complex compounds of chemical substa…

Following the reference through from the "clinical trials" section, the Wikipedia article is a little misleading. It makes it sound like only 356/1000 random plants have been studied, but in the paper [1] the breakdown is actually: 15.7% had been tested in clinical trials; 50.9% had been tested in vitro or in vivo; 20.8% had been subject to a phytochemical study; 12.1% had no studies found in the literature search; 0…

I was thinking we are talking about all plants in existence, this is a study of 1000 most commonly used herbs, still, I learned something new, so thanks. Still it doesn't prove your more bold claim that somehow all the potential benefits of using them are already available in a very safe to use pill.
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