It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#51

Post by user24 » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:00 PM UTC

api wrote: post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

> She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source.

> conventional "industrial" medicine [is] closed source

Absolutely false. Conventional medicine was "open source" before "open source" was a thing.

It has peer reviewed journals exactly because of the benefits that being open brings.

> [alt-med is] tolerant of differences of opinion to a much greater extent than conventional medicine.

Conventional medicine welcomes with open arms anything that can be proven to work. Alt-med welcomes with open arms anything. I prefer the former.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#52

Post by stiff » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:02 PM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #16

stiff wrote: post #9

Calling the "naturalistic fallacy" a fallacy is a bit of an overstretch IMO, sure natural=better is not a rule true 100% of the time, but nevertheless until sufficient evidence has not been accumulated that some of the adjustments we make to our lifestyle are not harmful to us health-wise avoiding them is not an unreasonable heuristic to follow. One example is how it became clear in the last years in nutritional scie…

I recently went to the doctor and got a recommendation to try one of three different medicines. Two were "supplements" and the third one was an off-label psychiatric medication. Each drug had its own set of side effects, and I chose one of the supplements because the off-label psychiatric drug required a prescription. I just didn't think "natural" versus "artificial" was relevant. The things that concern me about her…

It's funny you mention family planning, it's actually a great example for what I am saying. Pull out might not be the best strategy for avoiding kids, but also effectively avoiding kids isn't something too heavily promoted by evolution ;) and in a sense you wouldn't do bad to stick to it if survival is the ultimate goal. You mention how modern drugs are rigorously tested, but just recently there was a big affair about Bayers contraceptive pills used by millions of women worldwide causing blood clogs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drospirenone#Adverse_effects

So, being so incredibly lucky to be part of several thousands of years old lineage of people who managed to survive, it isn't unwise to stick to the traditional ways of living, when the new way wasn't tested for sufficiently long and/or when the old way wasn't proved to be harmful - remember I am talking about using it as a heuristic in situations where we don't have full knowledge. I am not saying that every single aspect of it will be beneficial, just that you will be unlikely to do very badly when following this strategy, simply because it was tested over a very long timespan.

Nassim Taleb makes a similar point in his book "Antifragile". To be honest I hated the book and think much of it is crap, but this aspect I agree with.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#53

Post by darkarmani » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:02 PM UTC

robbiep wrote: post #46

darkarmani wrote: post #32

Does anyone know the claims regarding saturated fat and coconut oil? I have some friends who in the last 2 months have become zealots and they encourage "high quality" fats (coconut oil) and denounce canola oil.

It is well known in cardiovascular surgery circles that islander diets (which have high levels of coconut oil) have vey high levels of atherosclerosis. I have heard this comment many times in 4 years of medical school, and seen many islander patients (Australia has a deal with the French Government to perform tertiary care of New Caledonians) however have yet to come across a source for it

I think the Paleo argument is that it is the interaction of certain saturated fats and insulin response from high glycemic index foods that oxidize LDL cholesterol (?). I don't know any of the science here, so i could be paraphrasing wrong, but I'd love understand if this is as fringe as it sounds.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#54

Post by darkarmani » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:03 PM UTC

edem wrote: post #28

I think that you miss the point here: If paleo diet is not the silver bullet than what diet should I have? I'm not a paleo advocate by the way. I tried it out but I'm not having a paleo diet at the moment. I'm still trying to find some alternate diet which is proven to be healthy. It seems that this may be one of the most difficult endeavor I've ever undertaken. Any suggestions?

> I think that you miss the point here: If paleo diet is not the silver bullet than what diet should I have?

That's a little harsh. The point of the article is ruling out a diet, so your search is easier knowing it is based on bad science.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#55

Post by up_and_up » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:04 PM UTC

robbiep wrote: post #33

api wrote: post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

There was an interesting study done - and written up on SBM - that suggests that the theraputic effect of Alt-med, at least with acupuncture, is entirely due to patient-practitioner interaction. As someone on the cusp of becoming a Doctor, I understand this. I even understand why traditional medicine fails at it (and it is many of the reasons you mention). And I understand why Alt-med succeeds here. I think it's grea…

What percentage of Conventional medicine practices are evidence based?, ie what percentage of what you as a conventional MD practice has been subjected to RCT?

I have a friend who is a Internal Medicine MD who claimed it was less than 50%. If thats the case then every conventional MD continues "to pretend and/or believe that what they are doing has a real scientific basis".

Please give me a % of what you do in a clinical setting that has been subjected to RCT otherwise you are setting a standard for CAM that even you cannot meet.

Can you explain, why, with all our advanced conventional medicine etc the USA still ranks 35 in the world for infant mortality, below even Cuba, Slovakia and Brunei? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mor...

EDIT: Okay, I did my own research into my question above. I am sure this is just scratching the surface here.

See here: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPag...

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#56

Post by Nursie » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:05 PM UTC

amalag wrote: post #48

chez17 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am someone totally open to the idea that there are herbs/food/whatever out there that have health benefits. What I never get about people into 'herbalism' is that they just say things and expect everyone to know them to be true. "X herb is good for digestion!" "X herb is good for relaxation!" How do they know this? Never once has one of them showed me a double blind study done that shows this to be true. In America…

the FDA method of approving poisons like modern medicines may not be a relevant methodology for herbs. Before you get all upset I called your favorite prescription medicine a poison, think about what it really is. A poison if taken in high doses. Ayurveda states there are 3 ways to cure disease. Food, herbs and poisons. Modern allopathy is only the third, poisons. It has very little information on how to cure through…

Everything in 'high doses' is a poison, even pure, distilled water.

Herbs either contain active chemicals or they're a placebo.

If they're a placebo they're as good as taking a sugar pill. If they contain active chemicals they contain unstandardised amounts and probably in concert with all sorts of other things that may or may not be helpful or harmful.

Ayurveda is bullshit. QED.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#57

Post by bitwize » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:05 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #39

JPKab wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found that, at least amongst 20 and 30 something age groups, women tend to be more religious too. Now that is my crappy anecdotal observation. It would be interesting to see some real data on that. I'm convinced that the whole C/AM thing taps into an instinctive love of purity. We are wired to care about cleanliness and purity in our food sources. Perhaps women are wired even more this way (the fact that they ha…

I really refuse to accept that women are just "wired for faith", it sounds too similar to the Victorian notion that somehow women are naturally wired for irrationality. There has to be a social reason why this spreads among women, there is a gap somewhere in science education that leaves women more vulnerable to this. And I actually watched it spread. The transmission seems to be helped by exploiting trusted relation…

Women are more prone to fall for BS because we enculturate them to believe that emotions and warm fuzzy feelings are a more reliable guide than science and logic. Third-wave feminism is partly to blame; the notion that science and logic are "patriarchal" and that not oppressing women entails a warm and fuzzy "feminine" replacement for disciplined thought is the third wave's doing.

Thinking logically, critically, and skeptically is an ungendered activity. Women are as capable of and welcome to it as men are; we should be encouraging the females of our kind to apply reason and evidence to their judgements! Sadly, we're the culture that produced Oprah and turned her into a media mogul powerful enough to make the foundations of the earth tremble.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#58

Post by rthomas6 » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:06 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #22

I'm getting kind of an asshole reputation for always arguing with friends who are deeply into C/AM. But I'm also starting to realize it's exactly like arguing with a religious person - there is absolutely nothing you can say to make them realize their faith is based on fallacies. There is absolutely no correlation between the general intelligence of a person and the ridiculousness of their belief claims. You could be…

This comment comes off as sexist to me. I don't think that more women being involved with C/AM means that a larger proportion of women are irrational. Different things are popular with women and men. A large portion of both men and women are irrational. Just because a larger group of irrational women like C/AM compared to men does NOT mean that there is a larger group of irrational women.

Conspiracy theories are irrational too, and seem to be much more popular with men. That doesn't mean that there are more irrational men than women.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#59

Post by sopooneo » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:07 PM UTC

api wrote: post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

Somewhat to your point, I've found that people arguing alternative vs modern western medicine are often arguing two sides of different issues. Those in favor of modern, evidence based medicine, explain why the scientific method works, and why is superior to superstition. However, those on the other side, having often spent a lot of time among doctors of all types trying to find help for some chronic condition, are arguing how horrible modern medicine has been to them in practice.

And if you look at the debate like this, it is possible to support both sides simultaneously.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#60

Post by Tichy » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 2:07 PM UTC

Ancient Egypt certainly was a culture with agriculture so citing mummy studies to debunk paleo diets does not make much sense. Also ommitting the studies about actual living hunter gatherer tribes does not lend the argument much credibility.

I think paleo diet books should be scrutinized, but not be confused with actual science.