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It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

sciencebasedmedicine.org

21–30 of 205 posts

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#21
post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

>> The physical design of the spaces is better too. Go into an alt-med clinic and it feels warm, welcoming, calming. Go into a hospital or a conventional doctors' office and it looks like a car repair shop.

I'm sure the feel could be improved, but I bet the main design goal in conventional offices is "surfaces that can be easily cleaned." Not very unlike a car repair shop, really.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#22
I'm getting kind of an asshole reputation for always arguing with friends who are deeply into C/AM. But I'm also starting to realize it's exactly like arguing with a religious person - there is absolutely nothing you can say to make them realize their faith is based on fallacies. There is absolutely no correlation between the general intelligence of a person and the ridiculousness of their belief claims. You could be talking astrophysics one minute and the next you're into a strange shamanistic wonderland where science doesn't exist. I really do think it's a faith-like mental virus.

On the whole, it doesn't worry me too much - everyone is entitled to their little domains of craziness and I know I have my own.

But what does worry me is the observation that C/AM believers in my environment are almost always women. It feels like a big gaping hole in everything we achieved with women's rights and education. Within my extremely limited horizon of living in a western industrial society, this is in fact the single most worrying trend. It's like a large part of our women went to a parallel universe "girls school", whereas the men in the mean time learned about science and reasoning.

I'm at a total loss as to where this gender disparity comes from, but there has to be a vector somewhere. If anyone has any ideas, I'm looking forward to hearing them. If there is anything to be done about this, I'd like to volunteer my time for it.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#23
post #20

I agree with a lot of what this article says regarding the "naturalistic fallacy",etc. However, this quote is an example of shallow thinking that drives me nuts: "Of course, it’s hard not to note that cancer and heart disease are primarily diseases of aging, and life expectancy was so much lower back in the day that a much smaller percentage of the population lived to advanced ages" Life expectancy FROM BIRTH has ris…

What's your point? If you rule out all causes of death, everyone lives forever. People live longer because they die less.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#24
post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

> I have a friend who's into homeopathy [...] she's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed proprietary systems and loathes bureaucracy

If your friend, or anyone else that way inclined, dislikes modern medicine because of its insular, closed nature then I urge them to support campaigns such as alltrials.net, which advocate open research across medicine. There are a number of people in the industry who truly support an open approach to pharma, and the more people generally shouting about it the better.

I say this because it seems very strange to advocate homeopathy based on its "open source" credentials when the people practising it won't tell you that it patently and demonstrably simply doesn't work outside of the placebo effect. Some alternative medicines do have proven benefits: homeopathy is not one of them.

There is a strong history of alternative medicine medicine practitioners using libel and defamation laws to silence their critics. See, for example, BCA v Singh[1]. Alternative medicine is not open. It is a highly insular community that reacts very badly to criticism, more so than modern medicine.

Let me put it another way: if alternative medicine (and I'm particularly thinking of homeopathy in this case) was so open you would expect people going to receive homeopathic treatment to be told the field was totally discredited by modern science and numerous double blind studies. But they're not. A homeopathic practitioner will not direct you to these studies, or tell you. I don't know how this can be considered open.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCA_v._Singh

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#25
post #20

I agree with a lot of what this article says regarding the "naturalistic fallacy",etc. However, this quote is an example of shallow thinking that drives me nuts: "Of course, it’s hard not to note that cancer and heart disease are primarily diseases of aging, and life expectancy was so much lower back in the day that a much smaller percentage of the population lived to advanced ages" Life expectancy FROM BIRTH has ris…

Life expectancy FROM BIRTH has risen dramatically,

Check more sources, and you will learn that life expectancy is rising at all age levels throughout the developed world. I've posted all of these links before here on Hacker News, and I don't mind posting them again.

Girls born since 2000 in the developed world are more likely than not to reach the age of 100, with boys likely to enjoy lifespans almost as long. The article "The Biodemography of Human Ageing" by James Vaupel,

http://www.demographic-challenge.com/files/downloads/2eb51e2...

originally published in the journal Nature in 2010, is a good current reference on the subject. A comparison of period life expectancy tables and cohort life expectancy tables for men and women in Britain

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lifetables/period-and-cohort-l...

helps make the picture more clear. ("Period life expectancy" is what is usually reported for a whole country. But cohort life expectancy provides a better estimate of future lifespans of young people today,

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1...

and is still steadily on the rise around the world.) Life expectancy at age 40, at age 60, and at even higher ages is still rising throughout the developed countries of the world.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=longevity-w...

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#26
post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

"By contrast alt-med is open. Anyone can learn about it. Anyone can become a practitioner. Anyone can experiment.

It's also unmitigated bullshit. It's tolerant of different views and opinions because none of them are based on evidence.

Alt-med is actually more free-enterprise. There is more patient choice. It's less expensive.

The 'choice' is an illusion. None of it works so sure, choose what you like. It's less expensive because it's nonsense.

The bedside manner you get...

Because it's a con game and that's all they have to offer.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#27
post #22

I'm getting kind of an asshole reputation for always arguing with friends who are deeply into C/AM. But I'm also starting to realize it's exactly like arguing with a religious person - there is absolutely nothing you can say to make them realize their faith is based on fallacies. There is absolutely no correlation between the general intelligence of a person and the ridiculousness of their belief claims. You could be…

I've found that, at least amongst 20 and 30 something age groups, women tend to be more religious too. Now that is my crappy anecdotal observation. It would be interesting to see some real data on that.

I'm convinced that the whole C/AM thing taps into an instinctive love of purity. We are wired to care about cleanliness and purity in our food sources. Perhaps women are wired even more this way (the fact that they have superior senses of smell to men might also explain it). The Nazi movement took advantage of many people's innate belief that purity of anything (in their case genetics) is a good thing no matter what.

There was an article posted not too long ago about fireplaces, and how bad for you they really are. There are two kinds of people: those who will readily evaluate facts which contradict their pre-conceived beleifs, and those who will immediately dismiss them.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#28
I think that you miss the point here: If paleo diet is not the silver bullet than what diet should I have? I'm not a paleo advocate by the way. I tried it out but I'm not having a paleo diet at the moment. I'm still trying to find some alternate diet which is proven to be healthy. It seems that this may be one of the most difficult endeavor I've ever undertaken. Any suggestions?

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#29
post #20

I agree with a lot of what this article says regarding the "naturalistic fallacy",etc. However, this quote is an example of shallow thinking that drives me nuts: "Of course, it’s hard not to note that cancer and heart disease are primarily diseases of aging, and life expectancy was so much lower back in the day that a much smaller percentage of the population lived to advanced ages" Life expectancy FROM BIRTH has ris…

What's your point? If you rule out all causes of death, everyone lives forever. People live longer because they die less.

The point is that if cancer and heart disease are disease of aging, but were rare in paleolithic times, then a life expectancy lower than the age at which they are expected to strike does not preclude the possibility that there were other factors than early death that reduced their incidence.

If a disproportionate number of people died before the age of 5, a life expectancy of 40 means that many lived beyond that age, and would be expected, all things being equal, to have contracted cancer and/or heart disease.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#30
A couple of points:

1. Most or all of the mummies studied were from neolithic societies, not paleolithic. The only one that might be considered paleolithic is the Unangan, but even these are from decades after they were conquered by the Russians. So they may very well have had white flour and processed sugar in their diet. I couldn't find information about their diet during this period.

2. The time needed for natural selection to work. I'm not convinced by this one. The examples that were given would have had higher selection pressure on the young during their child-bearing years. I would guess that the selection pressure from diseases of old-age would be much less, and would take many more generations to be felt.

Still some good points to be made about the naturalistic fallacy.

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