It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#41

Post by chez17 » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 1:54 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #22

I'm getting kind of an asshole reputation for always arguing with friends who are deeply into C/AM. But I'm also starting to realize it's exactly like arguing with a religious person - there is absolutely nothing you can say to make them realize their faith is based on fallacies. There is absolutely no correlation between the general intelligence of a person and the ridiculousness of their belief claims. You could be…

I am someone totally open to the idea that there are herbs/food/whatever out there that have health benefits. What I never get about people into 'herbalism' is that they just say things and expect everyone to know them to be true. "X herb is good for digestion!" "X herb is good for relaxation!" How do they know this? Never once has one of them showed me a double blind study done that shows this to be true. In America, the process to get something approved by the FDA is long and expensive. If some common herb like basil cured cancer no drug company is going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to prove it just so you can grow it in your back yard and not pay them for their trouble. However, certainly there has to be people willing to do studies on these herbs and I've never been giving one. The most disturbing thing is that this doesn't ever bother these people. Not once have a friend who is into herbs voluntarily provide any study done on any one of these herbs to prove a point. It's always just, "X herb helps with stress!" How do you know that to be true?!?!?

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#42

Post by venomsnake » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 1:55 PM UTC

It is not about the paleo. First - while atherosclerosis may be a normal part of aging, does it say anything about ancient heart attacks and strokes? I don't care of the plaques in my arteries I care about not being dead from a heart attack.

Also the influx of refined carbohydrates in our diet is a big change. So maybe we have not evolved yet to cope with them in the current amounts and purity.

I think most fad diets have the following problems:

1. Little and improper science - so even if they work they can't explain why or how.

2. One size fits all - I invented the paleo diet without ever heard of it - once I decided to quit sugar and starches cold turkey - I have always loved raw nuts and vegetables, grilled meat and cheese. But this is not for everyone - alot of people will not find it tasty. So they eat something they hate - the result is they have problems adhering to eat and abandon it.

3. Government has failed to do its job on the nutrition front. Every recommendation is fought by the losing industry lobbyists, there is little exploitative science done etc. While every person should have the choice they also have to have access to transparent, true and scientifically proved nutritional information - otherwise we will always have the next wonder diet on which sizable portion of the population will be on. A lot of people will hurt themselves taking it to the extremes and so on ...

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#43

Post by darkarmani » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 1:56 PM UTC

tcskeptic wrote: post #36

I'm not a Paleo dieter, but I am familiar with the gist of their claims. I do not understand how this study is a response to those claims. The 137 mummies studied are from "Individuals from ancient Egypt, ancient Peru, the Ancestral Puebloans of southwest America, and the Unangan of the Aleutian Islands were imaged." Of those we have 3 agricultural civilizations (Egytp, Peru, Pueblo) and one hunter gatherer (Aleutian…

No-true-paleo fallacy.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#44

Post by wmat » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 1:57 PM UTC

I recently lost 30lbs by adopting a low-carb/real-food/paleo way of eating. As a result, I feel much better, sleep better, and have increased energy. My moods seem to be stabilizing and I feel more confident than ever. The decrease in weight has enabled me to exercise more comfortably, which in turn has resulted in an increased frequency of exercise, as it's now enjoyable. I can appreciate that the science behind the Paleo movement is not perfect, but the benefits I've realized from it far outweigh any questionable science employed to sell a few books by Loren Cordain along the way. It all basically boils down to application of the 80/20 rule to diet anyway.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#45

Post by analog » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 1:58 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #26

api wrote: post #12

I have a friend who's into homeopathy and such, and I normally keep my mouth shut. But I have done some thinking about why. This friend is very smart, very intellectual, very curious, and not overly credulous. She's really a bit of a nerd. From my few conversations on the matter, the thing that's jumped out at me is this: She's drawn to alternative medicine because it's open source. Like many nerds, she hates closed…

"By contrast alt-med is open. Anyone can learn about it. Anyone can become a practitioner. Anyone can experiment. It's also unmitigated bullshit. It's tolerant of different views and opinions because none of them are based on evidence. Alt-med is actually more free-enterprise. There is more patient choice. It's less expensive. The 'choice' is an illusion. None of it works so sure, choose what you like. It's less expe…

If it works it's not unmitigated bullshit.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#46

Post by robbiep » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 1:58 PM UTC

darkarmani wrote: post #32

Does anyone know the claims regarding saturated fat and coconut oil? I have some friends who in the last 2 months have become zealots and they encourage "high quality" fats (coconut oil) and denounce canola oil.

It is well known in cardiovascular surgery circles that islander diets (which have high levels of coconut oil) have vey high levels of atherosclerosis. I have heard this comment many times in 4 years of medical school, and seen many islander patients (Australia has a deal with the French Government to perform tertiary care of New Caledonians) however have yet to come across a source for it

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#47

Post by darkarmani » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 1:59 PM UTC

kyllo wrote: post #35

JPKab wrote: post #20

I agree with a lot of what this article says regarding the "naturalistic fallacy",etc. However, this quote is an example of shallow thinking that drives me nuts: "Of course, it’s hard not to note that cancer and heart disease are primarily diseases of aging, and life expectancy was so much lower back in the day that a much smaller percentage of the population lived to advanced ages" Life expectancy FROM BIRTH has ris…

I came here to post the same thing. This is its own fallacy. It was used to market estrogen supplementation, among other spurious remedies, to post-menopausal women. "Women didn't used to live very long after menopause--the life expectancy was only about 50. You need to take estrogen pills to keep you healthy into old age." This of course was people using statistics to lie. The average life expectancy was lower prima…

> This of course was people using statistics to lie. The average life expectancy was lower primarily due to high infant mortality. Life expectancy is NOT the average age at death.

Just because lower infant mortality raises the life expectancy, doesn't mean that the average age at death hasn't gone up. I agree with your life expectancy claim do, but it doesn't mean the opposite is true either.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#48

Post by amalag » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 1:59 PM UTC

chez17 wrote: post #41

Udo wrote: post #22

I'm getting kind of an asshole reputation for always arguing with friends who are deeply into C/AM. But I'm also starting to realize it's exactly like arguing with a religious person - there is absolutely nothing you can say to make them realize their faith is based on fallacies. There is absolutely no correlation between the general intelligence of a person and the ridiculousness of their belief claims. You could be…

I am someone totally open to the idea that there are herbs/food/whatever out there that have health benefits. What I never get about people into 'herbalism' is that they just say things and expect everyone to know them to be true. "X herb is good for digestion!" "X herb is good for relaxation!" How do they know this? Never once has one of them showed me a double blind study done that shows this to be true. In America…

the FDA method of approving poisons like modern medicines may not be a relevant methodology for herbs.

Before you get all upset I called your favorite prescription medicine a poison, think about what it really is. A poison if taken in high doses. Ayurveda states there are 3 ways to cure disease. Food, herbs and poisons. Modern allopathy is only the third, poisons. It has very little information on how to cure through food and herbs.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#49

Post by Nursie » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 1:59 PM UTC

analog wrote: post #45

Nursie wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"By contrast alt-med is open. Anyone can learn about it. Anyone can become a practitioner. Anyone can experiment. It's also unmitigated bullshit. It's tolerant of different views and opinions because none of them are based on evidence. Alt-med is actually more free-enterprise. There is more patient choice. It's less expensive. The 'choice' is an illusion. None of it works so sure, choose what you like. It's less expe…

If it works it's not unmitigated bullshit.

It doesn't.

Do you know what we call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

Re: It’s a part of my paleo fantasy, it’s a part of my paleo dream

#50

Post by rdtsc » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 1:59 PM UTC

I skimmed the article but it seems to me it misses a key component of why people choose "alternatives". Both "naturalistic" and "old school" (as in 18th century and earlier probably) today seem to me to be a reaction against years of uncontrolled abuse, dangerous drugs, uncontrolled trials in the past, poisoning and dumping chemicals in the environment (ddt and such) without any regard for consequences. It is kind of this cavalier attitude towards human bodies and environment during an accelerated progress in the last century that made some (unfortunately) think twice and reject everything that modern medicine stands for.

Another aspect of this "integrative" medical approach is basic psychology. Patients want to be understood and paid attention to. They want doctors to also ask them what they had for breakfast and how their son is doing. They'd want doctors to come to their house, put the hand on their head and say "you'll get better don't worry". All that is in contrast to a cold and robotic 5 minute chart check visits that are billed at $594.00/hour.