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It's Not Just Apple vs Android

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Re: It's Not Just Apple vs Android

#11

Post by simonh »

wuest wrote: post #6

> Nokia (with Microsoft) make beautiful hardware and Windows Phone is lush, but for some reason is not getting the market love its quality deserves. Two points here: First, it pains me to see MS lumped with Nokia. I'll be clinging to my N9 for a very long time yet (and probably only move on when Ubuntu or Firefox phones are compelling). I miss Maemo/MeeGo. Second, the reason which MS doesn't get the love which its qu…

Was there any evidence at all that before they bought Skype MS had a snowball's chance in hell in the handset game?

Re: It's Not Just Apple vs Android

#12

Post by simonh »

gonvaled wrote: post #7

Sure there is no good-guy and bad-guy here. But there is a better guy, and a worse guy, and that largely depends on what you value most. For me, the tactics of Apple using legal methods to try to squash competition are a huge red flag, because I happen to think that the consumer is going to pay for that. You can think that Apple defending its rights is going to benefit the consumer long-term by allowing Apple to prov…

> For me, the tactics of Apple using legal methods to try to squash competition are a huge red flag, because I happen to think that the consumer is going to pay for that.

Because nobody ever heard of a mobile phone company suing the competition to limit their ability to compete before right? I mean before Apple V Samsung it was unheard of.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2003456/Nokia...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8460899.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/oct/04/microsoft-m...

I do agree with you that competition benefits the consumer. A vibrant Android ecosystem is in the interests of iPhone users like me. But the Apple lawsuit was never going to stop anyone else making modern smartphones. That's not what it was about, which is why despite a (currently) $0.5Bn settlement in their favour Apple hansn't gone on to sue anyone else. Apple were very clear about the reasons why they sued Samsung and their objectives, and their behaviour has been consistent with that.

Re: It's Not Just Apple vs Android

#13

Post by wuest »

simonh wrote: post #11
wuest wrote: post #6

> Nokia (with Microsoft) make beautiful hardware and Windows Phone is lush, but for some reason is not getting the market love its quality deserves. Two points here: First, it pains me to see MS lumped with Nokia. I'll be clinging to my N9 for a very long time yet (and probably only move on when Ubuntu or Firefox phones are compelling). I miss Maemo/MeeGo. Second, the reason which MS doesn't get the love which its qu…

Was there any evidence at all that before they bought Skype MS had a snowball's chance in hell in the handset game?

I don't think so, personally. Skype just adds yet another factor to work against them.

Re: It's Not Just Apple vs Android

#14

Post by illo »

gonvaled wrote: post #7

Sure there is no good-guy and bad-guy here. But there is a better guy, and a worse guy, and that largely depends on what you value most. For me, the tactics of Apple using legal methods to try to squash competition are a huge red flag, because I happen to think that the consumer is going to pay for that. You can think that Apple defending its rights is going to benefit the consumer long-term by allowing Apple to prov…

In which way a market can truly be split between (ideologically) better and worse players (this is a sincere question, no rethorics)? My point of view is that all the companies involved in this mobile-market dance happened and will happen (sometimes willingly) to turn out evil or good based on what better suits them in a particular point in time. I'm confident it will take just time for Samsung to show they're just a company (no deontology involved). Same goes for Google, HTC, LG, whatever. Apple, they chose the wrong juncture and now are paying that by (deservingly) facing endless bad publicity. So, no, I don't think the "good guys" won (let alone the fact that profit-wise they're actually all winning right now), I can't even think about them being good guys... just companies.

Re: It's Not Just Apple vs Android

#15

Post by cooldeal »

wuest wrote: post #6

> Nokia (with Microsoft) make beautiful hardware and Windows Phone is lush, but for some reason is not getting the market love its quality deserves. Two points here: First, it pains me to see MS lumped with Nokia. I'll be clinging to my N9 for a very long time yet (and probably only move on when Ubuntu or Firefox phones are compelling). I miss Maemo/MeeGo. Second, the reason which MS doesn't get the love which its qu…

>Telcos aren't huge fans of Skype, as a rule--it doesn't quite jive with their values.

Values? You make it sound as if it's ethical values. It more like they're trying to stifle innovation instead of becoming dumb pipes like ISPs.

>For Windows Phone, which integrates Skype by default

How is Skype more integrated with WP, than say iOS or Android?

Re: It's Not Just Apple vs Android

#16

Post by gonvaled »

simonh wrote: post #12
gonvaled wrote: post #7

Sure there is no good-guy and bad-guy here. But there is a better guy, and a worse guy, and that largely depends on what you value most. For me, the tactics of Apple using legal methods to try to squash competition are a huge red flag, because I happen to think that the consumer is going to pay for that. You can think that Apple defending its rights is going to benefit the consumer long-term by allowing Apple to prov…

> For me, the tactics of Apple using legal methods to try to squash competition are a huge red flag, because I happen to think that the consumer is going to pay for that. Because nobody ever heard of a mobile phone company suing the competition to limit their ability to compete before right? I mean before Apple V Samsung it was unheard of. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2003456/Nokia... http://news.bb…

Sure, but those are not design-related patents, or natural-gesture patents, or for that matter designs based on principles being part of human society for centuries ("slide to unlock" anyone?)

"Nokia finally claims multi-million dollar victory over Apple for breaching up to 46 patents"

"Camera maker Kodak has said it will sue Apple and Research In Motion (RIM), the makers of the iPhone and Blackberry, over technology used in their handsets."

I do not condone those actions. I just think that Apple is here the "worse-guy", opening a very smelly can of worms just because of animosity towards Android (http://9to5mac.com/2013/01/17/google-ceo-larry-page-on-steve...)

And yes, Microsoft is an even worse bad-guy (but largely irrelevant in the smartphone sector), that is why I have not (directly) spent a penny on their products in over 15 years.

Re: It's Not Just Apple vs Android

#17

Post by cooldeal »

From Gruber's article:

>By profit share, on the other hand, according to Canaccord Genuity analyst T. Michael Walkley, last year Apple took 69 percent of the handset industry’s profits; Samsung took 34. For just the last quarter, the numbers were 72 percent for Apple, 29 for Samsung. You will note that both the annual and quarterly numbers total more than 100 percent; that is because all other handset makers, combined, are losing money

>That’s a statement of fact, in a Reuters news (not opinion) story, about a company with 70 percent (and judging by last quarter, growing) of the industry’s profits

I would love to see such a narrative written about Microsoft's server platform.

How much profit does Windows Server take in the server OS market? How much IIS take in the web server market? What about ASP.NET vs. Java, Ruby or whatever? Or Visual Studio vs. Eclipse and the rest in the IDE market? They're beating free(as in beer) tools and making a huge profits. Their revenue from the Server & Tools division is about 20 billion a year.

If iOS is beating Android, why can't Windows Server be considered beating Linux by the same metric?

Re: It's Not Just Apple vs Android

#18

Post by gonvaled »

illo wrote: post #14
gonvaled wrote: post #7

Sure there is no good-guy and bad-guy here. But there is a better guy, and a worse guy, and that largely depends on what you value most. For me, the tactics of Apple using legal methods to try to squash competition are a huge red flag, because I happen to think that the consumer is going to pay for that. You can think that Apple defending its rights is going to benefit the consumer long-term by allowing Apple to prov…

In which way a market can truly be split between (ideologically) better and worse players (this is a sincere question, no rethorics)? My point of view is that all the companies involved in this mobile-market dance happened and will happen (sometimes willingly) to turn out evil or good based on what better suits them in a particular point in time. I'm confident it will take just time for Samsung to show they're just a…

Well, this is hair-splitting, but I'll bite. A company can be considered (by me) a "good-guy" if:

1 - they do not want to steal from me (by using legal tactics to shut down competitors)

2 - they are not making my life difficult (by actively fighting standardization of protocols/formats)

Bonus points for improving life for everybody by releasing quality open source software (which Apple has done, in a limited way)

I have yet to be disappointed by Google. I am sure I will, sometime in the future, but not yet (lots of open source software, little legal activity - mostly retaliation - data liberation, open formats)

I have systematically been negatively affected by Microsoft (I am still waiting for a universally accepted document format, which Microsoft largely destroyed with their back-room tactics against ODF; I am also fed up that most laptops on the market are only offered with Windows tax - which I attribute to Microsoft abusing their OEM market power)

And Apple has tried to reduce my choice on the Smartphone market (it has failed); they are trying to destroy a truly open applications market on the web (by offering "Apps", same applies to Google, following suit); and they are largely responsible for the trend in locked-in content (iTunes, books, whatever)

Re: It's Not Just Apple vs Android

#19

Post by wuest »

cooldeal wrote: post #15
wuest wrote: post #6

> Nokia (with Microsoft) make beautiful hardware and Windows Phone is lush, but for some reason is not getting the market love its quality deserves. Two points here: First, it pains me to see MS lumped with Nokia. I'll be clinging to my N9 for a very long time yet (and probably only move on when Ubuntu or Firefox phones are compelling). I miss Maemo/MeeGo. Second, the reason which MS doesn't get the love which its qu…

>Telcos aren't huge fans of Skype, as a rule--it doesn't quite jive with their values. Values? You make it sound as if it's ethical values. It more like they're trying to stifle innovation instead of becoming dumb pipes like ISPs. >For Windows Phone, which integrates Skype by default How is Skype more integrated with WP, than say iOS or Android?

> Values? You make it sound as if it's ethical values.

One could make the point that I mean ethical values. Telcos' ethics are certainly at play here. The values to which I refer can be summed up as, "prioritize profit over a robust network and user experience, avoid empowering other entities to compete on even ground."

> How is Skype more integrated with WP, than say iOS or Android?

My understanding (disclaimer: as I stated above, I use an N9 primarily. I do own an Android and iOS device, but they aren't my primary handsets. I don't own a Windows phone) is that Skype (a) comes pre-installed on Win8 handsets, and (b) has its functionality integrated into the OS similar to the way SMS and cellular-network-phone applications are.

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