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This Man Thinks He Never Has to Eat Again

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Re: This Man Thinks He Never Has to Eat Again

#371
post #361
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As mentioned, there are too many "unknown unknowns" to say for sure. So I'll refer to an anecdote: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201106/wh... In her early 30's, Staci's health started going downhill. After twelve years of strict vegetarianism, she began to suffer from anemia and chronic fatigue syndrome, and she experienced stomach pains for two hours after every meal. "I was completely debilitat…

From that study, about 20% of vegetarians who go back to eating flesh do so for perceived health reasons. After 12 years of no health issues, and with a low general reason to believe that vegetarianism causes health issues, I'd be slow to attribute the reversal to the thing the person thinks worked. (I would also expect more potential hazards from something new, untried, and untested, but I've signed up because I lik…

Just to clarify - that was an example. Whatever will be wrong with Soylent, will probably be something no one considered.

What do we know about completely eliminating fiber from the diet for an extended period of time? Or what do we know about chewing food being beneficial for dental health? It was mentioned he hardly poops on Soylent - were there prolonged studies on this subject?

Willingness to risk is something I respect, anyway.

Re: This Man Thinks He Never Has to Eat Again

#372
post #103

> a 24-year-old software engineer > ... > Soylent contains all of the nutritive components of a balanced diet What utter bollocks. We're (as in, scientists studying nutrition and how utterly wrong food industry has gotten that in the 20th and early 21st century) finally starting to get our collective heads around the benefits of whole foods vs. highly processed foods, and just how badly our bodies deal with the latte…

You sound like an industry-insider explaining why a new startup will fail. "They're too young!" "They don't have the experience" "We've devoted our LIVES to figuring this out, one kid in his basement didn't do it in a few weeks!" Etc etc No offense but we've heard the exact same thing about every successful idea. And what's more: People look at the human GI totally wrong anyway. They think, what can I put in to get t…

>When in reality, the human GI evolved to support an extremely broad range of inputs as it's most significant factor.

While we can agree that innovation should not be stifled, the idea that we can determine the processes by which the body utilizes nutrients and their interdependent effects, after a few months of research, is utterly hubristic.

I often make the claim that the human body (other animals are close too) exhibits one of the highest levels of complexity out of all the known systems in the universe, far exceeding the complexity of man mad systems. I challenge anyone to put forward a counter-example...

I've been researching nutrition for 5 years and read hundreds of papers on PubMed and, involved with QS (quantified self) and life extension movements, track my bloodwork in Google Spreadsheets etc.

You may be wondering, why would someone invest such an extraordinary amount of time (1000+ man hours) an energy in this topic? Well I used to think very differently about my health. As a young strong-willed software developer, I arrogantly assumed like many before I knew it all in my teenage years. My mental model of the body, was not dissimilar to your current views on GI (the body will just handle whatever you throw at it). As a result after 10 years of eating badly I ended up with a chronic disease (Psoriatic Arthritis).

Being a teenager I knew better and ate anything I wanted, which specifically was an extreme diet consisting entirely of pasta, milk and coke. Because that's what my body "wanted". Now I'm in my 30's and undoing the damage, but I've learned that this system really is complicated, more so than a rocket or microprocessor. You're right in the sense that the body can tolerate it for a while, but it's not designed to cope with abuse over a period of many years. Eventually you will pay the price.

Even now though, I wouldn't consider myself an "expert", although some of my peers might. But I have learned enough know when someone is out of their depth. This guy is well intentioned but that does not mean he's justified in making such grandiose claims.

For example he says "Vitamin D" and "Vitamin K", without acknowledging various forms exist.

For example he says he takes "Vitamin D(400IU):"

What exactly is 'Vitamin D'? Cholecalciferol (D3) [1] is quite different from Ergocalciferol (D2)[2]

D3 levels are particularly important when talking about overall health.

Or take "Vitamin K" for example, are we talking about the philoquinone (K1) [3] or the menaquinone (K2) [4] group?

Even if then, if one is talking Vitamin K2, there are various menaquinones forms so is he suggesting Mk4, mk7 or some other form? [5].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholecalciferol

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergocalciferol

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylloquinone

[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_k2

[5] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10084398

Re: This Man Thinks He Never Has to Eat Again

#374
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the FDA doesn't rule this with the iron fist they rule over real food. In other words, by declaring 'Soylent' as 'not food' he sidesteps lots of regulations and tests.

He isn't selling it, the FDA has nothing to do with it regardless of what he calls it. And just saying something is "not food" doesn't do anything to stop it from being regulated. The FDA does regulate dietary supplements and meal replacements, exactly the same way they regulate any other food.

Sadly, this is not the case:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/02/dietary-supplem...

> While on its surface this would appear to be a reasonable distinction, given that it doesn’t make sense from a policy or scientific standpoint to hold food to the standards as rigorous as the standards to which drugs are held, as implemented by the DSHEA this distinction has the pernicious effect of allowing manufacturers to label all sorts of botanicals, many of which possess pharmacological activity, as “supplements,” and supplements, being defined as food and not medicine, do not require prior approval by the FDA before marketing. In other words, supplement manufacturers basically work on the honors system when it comes to deciding what they will market as a supplement, and the FDA can’t do anything about a harmful supplement until after it has been on the market and caused harm.

> Some firms don’t even have recipes, known as master manufacturing records, for their products.

> Others make their supplements in unsanitary factories. New Jersey-based Quality Formulation Laboratories produced protein powder mixes and other supplements in a facility infested with rodents, rodent feces and urine, according to government records. FDA inspectors found a rodent apparently cut in half next to a scoop, according to a 2008 inspection report.

Re: This Man Thinks He Never Has to Eat Again

#375
From what I've read, it is better to get calcium from milk, vegetables like Spinach, Kale, Okra, Collards, or Soy or White beans, or some fish rather CaCO3. The Mayo clinic suggests taking CaCO3 with food, because stomach acid helps with the absorption: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/calcium-supplements/AN01428 Otherwise, Calcium Citrate may be a better choice.

The thing that worries me most about this diet is that, while in some ways it may be of great benefit in energy, etc., some of the side effects may not be seen for months, years, or perhaps a few decades.

It is an interesting experiment, but I think it would be a good idea if it were controlled and monitored by a doctor.

Also he said, "This is one case and it's only been a month". I ate almonds, peanuts, cheese, meat, and veggies for a few months, lost 15 lbs. But, since I've gained it all back and then some. One month at a new diet something hardly makes one an expert.

Re: This Man Thinks He Never Has to Eat Again

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying this guy isn't a quack, but I have seen studies (or articles about studies, at least) by reputable universities on low calorie diets that suggest they increase your lifespan. I can't recall the details, but if you're interested, start googling - it's a legitimate field of study with some surprising outcomes (to a layman like me, at least).

My impression is that everyone is dialing back their excitement over those results. They were based on rats, they failed to hold up for primates and almost certainly will shorten lifespan for humans. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=calorie-res...

Perhaps, but I believe the one I saw was on people, not rats.

Re: This Man Thinks He Never Has to Eat Again

#377
post #198

His approach assumes (among other things) that we know absolutely EVERYTHING there is to know about nutrition. I'm fairly confident that that's not a good assumption. And that a long-term diet of his soylent will lead to some nasty deficiency. (Of course, if he's willing to be the research guinea pig for the rest of us, more power to him.)

"I'm fairly confident that that's not a good assumption." Consider the diet of livestock and pets. Not unusual for multiple generations to eat the same product. If livestock and pets were generally scrawny and sickly you would have a point, but they generally seem to live much longer and healthier than in the wild, usually by a pretty large multiple. I've often wondered if I'd be willing to drink "ensure" for 240 yea…

Livestock and pets aren't as healthy as you think they are. Their lives are better because they are protected from various factors like bad weather, lack of water or food, but they still need a vet or medicine (by the way, chicken used to have antibiotics in their diet). I doubt that they're in a better shape than a wild animal living in a good area.

As an example I'll quote from an article [1] about the eggs from free-range hens with access to pasture:

The "Mother Earth News" and SARE studies found that free-range eggs contained 67 percent and 40 percent more vitamin A, respectively, than conventional eggs (see References 2, pages 1 and 3).

Free-range eggs contain more vitamin E than their conventional counterparts. The "Mother Earth News" survey found triple the vitamin E in the eggs they tested, and Pennsylvania State University research found double the vitamin E in the eggs of grass-fed hens (see References 2, pages 1 and 7).

Though I agree that beating or at least improving J6Packs' average diet wouldn't be that hard.

[1] http://greenliving.nationalgeographic.com/health-benefits-fr...

Re: This Man Thinks He Never Has to Eat Again

#378
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of evidence should be on the person claiming to have a miracle drink. The burdon of evidence should be even greater when it's a non-natural source, as Nassim Taleb argues in Antifragile, "The "non-natural" has to prove its harmlessness." If you don't take this viewpoint, you end up with cigarettes, transfat and radium jewelry.

He seems to be very conscious that this is in effect an experiment, that might be risky as well. E.g. from his site ( http://robrhinehart.com/ ): "I am reticent to provide exact brand names and instructions because I am not fully convinced of the diet's safety for a physiology different than mine. What if I missed something that's essential for someone of a different race or age group" But he is interested in actuall…

This might be a different tack, but what if you take Mr. Taleb's "nature" to be human nature [1]? People don't tend to eat poison mushrooms as a rule.

In that case, his rule would be a good one. If you drift in to a new area of human endevour, the people who follow you out there are taking a risk until the area is well-traveled

[1] In the Aristotelian sense: human nature is the proportionate sum of all human activity. We mostly eat, drink, sleep, walk, talk, etc. so that makes up the bulk of our nature. Cannibalism and incest are acted out much, much less often, so that is a much, much smaller part of our nature, though it is tucked in there.

Re: This Man Thinks He Never Has to Eat Again

#379
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not as dangerous as a stead diet of McD's. See it in persepective. He's at least trying, not just stuffing his mouthhole with salt-sugar-fat crap.

A steady diet of McDonald's (or any equivalent fast food) isn't nearly as inherently dangerous as things like "Super Size Me" would have you believe. Morgan Spurlock was eating 5000 calories of McDonald's a day, with most of it coming from the milkshakes, not the solid food. If you force-feed yourself 5000 calories of anything every day for a month, you're going to have health problems.

The "Fat Head" movie is good response to the "Super Size Me". It proves that eating at McDonald's isn't as bad as one might think and it also presents a lot of other interesting stuff.

Re: This Man Thinks He Never Has to Eat Again

#380
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of evidence should be on the person claiming to have a miracle drink. The burdon of evidence should be even greater when it's a non-natural source, as Nassim Taleb argues in Antifragile, "The "non-natural" has to prove its harmlessness." If you don't take this viewpoint, you end up with cigarettes, transfat and radium jewelry.

He seems to be very conscious that this is in effect an experiment, that might be risky as well. E.g. from his site ( http://robrhinehart.com/ ): "I am reticent to provide exact brand names and instructions because I am not fully convinced of the diet's safety for a physiology different than mine. What if I missed something that's essential for someone of a different race or age group" But he is interested in actuall…

I really must defer to Taleb on this, I'll simply say he means natural in a more specific way than "all substances that exist in nature," and something more like, "the culture and patterns mankind has successfully practiced in relationship to nature for thousands of years with proven success."
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