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“Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

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Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#181
post #178
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Is there any junk food out there made without dairy, soy protein extract, or wheat?" Jell-O gelatin snacks? Its ingredients list is "WATER, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, SUGAR, GELATIN, CONTAINS LESS THAN 0.5% OF ADIPIC ACID AND CITRIC ACID (FOR TARTNESS), SODIUM CITRATE (CONTROLS ACIDITY), RED 40, ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR." Fruit roll-ups also look like they foot the bill, but I can't copy&paste the ingredient list. As you sa…

Ok on fruit rollups (which I haven't personally eaten since the early 80s, but if there's still out there, cool), and fritos. Also genuine corn chips without additives and a salsa dip is very American. "RUFFLES® TAPATIO® Limon Flavored Potato Chips" At that point I think we need to define the "mainstream american diet" aka most of the stuff at the supermarket. I don't think this or banana chips quite make that cut. D…

I don't understand your point. I was answering the question "Is there any junk food out there made without dairy, soy protein extract, or wheat?" with the thought that answering that question would be useful for your son. Not to disprove or even contest the fact that there is little in the way of junk food that your son could eat. To be honest, my first thought was wasabi peas, but those contain soy.

I grew up in Miami. Bananas - the closest tree was in our neighbors yard - were perhaps a bigger part of my life than elsewhere in the US. But it's still part of the US! :) In our yard we had one each of lime, mango, avocado and guava trees. While I didn't have salsa until I went to college, nor a Frito pie for another 10 years after that.

I figured since Walgreens had banana chips then they count as mainstream enough that you can get. It's not "specialty expensive therefore rare exotic gluten free junk food." Also, they are not healthy. It's basically fried starch.

I didn't notice that "since 2004" means your son is at least 9, and almost certainly older. Yes, rollups aren't as popular for teenagers. What about Jolly Ranchers? "CORN SYRUP; SUGAR; CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: MALIC ACID; NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR ; ARTIFICIAL COLOR ( RED 40; BLUE 1; YELLOW 5; YELLOW 6) "

Here's information about Mike&Ike's and related junk food from Just Born candies. http://www.allergicliving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1655 . Based on that list, MIKE AND IKE®, HOT TAMALES®, ZOURS®, TEENEE BEANEE® Jelly Beans and JUST BORN® Jelly Beans are gluten, soy, and milk free. I know that Mike&Ike had a big PR campaign a year or two back, aimed at teens. Don't know how it turned out though.

You eat junk food while at work, so it's not like you're against junk food per se. Perhaps there's something that you and your son can enjoy together? In moderation, of course.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#182
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, the age of the Roman republic was a long way from the stone age. Second, by then grain was a HUGE part of the diet, so drawing conclusions about life expectancy from Roman traditions is probably not a great example. Third, Romans didn't live that long - here are a list of emperors I could find who died of natural causes... Augustus - 75 Tiberius - 77 Vespasian - 69 Titus - 41 Nerva - 67 Trajan - 63 Hadrian - 6…

I'm not sure why he brought up the Romans. But I think he wanted to illustrate how unintuitive life expectancy is. According to Wikipedia, which cites brittanica (does anyone have a real source on this?), roman life expectancy was 28! But if you survived to age 15, your life spam was expected to be much longer. In this context the HG life expectancy of 33 is better than it sounds.

long life spam? I already get that in my inbox ;)

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#183
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the parent saying anything about meal timing? It's about the effect on your body of a particular meal. Carbs and sugars spike insulin much more than fats or protein.

That is an issue of meal timing. Individual meals doesn't matter. Transient insulin spikes are irrelevant, what matters is your overall expenditure vs intake.

Insulin spikes are completely relevant, since insulin signals your fat cells to take up energy from your blood stream. Now you have no energy and feel hungry again.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#184
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "plenty of time" of time argument only shows that Cordain's reasoning is not bulletproof -- it doesn't refute it. Just because it's possible to adapt to a new condition doesn't mean we will, or that our adaptation will be complete. Lactase persistence may be evidence of evolution in a relatively short time, but by the same token lactose intolerance is evidence of its failure. So while it's a fair point of critici…

That's shifting the burden of proof. It's Cordain that is making the claim and promoting a diet, he should provide the evidence, not Zuk.

These are orthogonal issues. Yes, Cordain should provide proof for the diet he champions. Separately from that, she has written a book called "Paleofantasy" which implies proof that the diet's precepts are invalid. Hence from her side showing that they might be invalid is not enough.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#185
post #144
post #110

I've recently came to the conclusion that the Paleo diet is beneficial for me not because it tells me what to eat. No, it's because it tells me exactly what not to eat. With respect to what people ate (especially how much meat), the only safe assumption was “whatever they could get,” something that to this day varies greatly depending on where they live. Precisely. I can not tell exactly what and how much they could…

What about all of the exceptions? Can you eat corn (domesticated some 9,000 years ago), sugar cane (8,000), or bananas (8,000) Wild almonds are toxic, but safe domesticated varieties started appearing some 5,000 years ago. Also, macadamia nuts have a similar problem, and they were domesticated only some 200 years ago. What about strawberries? Wild strawberries are edible, but tiny. It wasn't until about the 1400s tha…

What about all of the exceptions?

The general approach to exceptions is that exceptions exist and yes, it is impossible to eat 100% foods that the paleolithic man ate. Obviously even modern cows or pigs did not exist 20K years ago. And one can argue that wild fish / game is also not the same cause they evolved somewhat. So, the approach is that while the ideal is 100%, the real goal is not to reach it, but to gradually come closer.

I.e. eliminating sugars, white bread, sodas, vegetable oils is probably already ~70% of the way or more.

Olives are treated to make them less bitter. Is curing or fermenting permissible, or does one eat only the olives which can be eaten without processing?

Well, my personal approach is that fresh/cooked is OK, and then, the more processing is done, the farther we are away from ideal. So, along the lines of fruit > fresh fruit juice > reconstituted fruit juice > fruit drink > water with dissolved fructose. That's not "scientific" and I'm not aiming to prove it.

By your logic, you've given up on coffee, chocolate, and alcohol, right? No paleolithic person ever tasted a drop of whiskey.

That would be ideal, though I haven't reached that point yet. I'm not even sure I will seriously try to eliminate all those by 100% - but any reduction will be beneficial.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#186
post #185
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about all of the exceptions? Can you eat corn (domesticated some 9,000 years ago), sugar cane (8,000), or bananas (8,000) Wild almonds are toxic, but safe domesticated varieties started appearing some 5,000 years ago. Also, macadamia nuts have a similar problem, and they were domesticated only some 200 years ago. What about strawberries? Wild strawberries are edible, but tiny. It wasn't until about the 1400s tha…

What about all of the exceptions? The general approach to exceptions is that exceptions exist and yes, it is impossible to eat 100% foods that the paleolithic man ate. Obviously even modern cows or pigs did not exist 20K years ago. And one can argue that wild fish / game is also not the same cause they evolved somewhat. So, the approach is that while the ideal is 100%, the real goal is not to reach it, but to gradual…

It seems then that your scale is not what people of the paleo era could get (in an abstract sense, because until 500 years ago, no one on the planet could have had a slice of tomato with a leaf of basil on top), but rather that you want to minimize the number of processing steps involved in the food you eat.

That latter goal is much easier for me to understand, and even support, though I wonder if corn, being the result of 5,000 years of directed evolution, is more processed than beer.

Take for example alcohol. There's good genetic evidence that humans have evolved to better handle alcohol. Eg, "The studies on human ADH (alcohol dehydrogenase) gene have suggested Darwinian positive selection on the genetic variation of ADH1B His47 [52–54]. Alcohol consumption is a recent agriculture-related life style, and the adaptive selection has begun about 10 Kya" http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijeb/2011/484769/

During the Babylonian era, "a daily ration of beer was provided for all citizens, the amount depending on one's social status" and "it was sometimes used to pay workers as part of their daily wages." During the Middle Ages it was safer to drink than water.

And that's the point of the linked-to criticism - 20,000 years is long enough that our genetics are different than humans of the same era. We've evolved to better handle starch, to better handle drinking milk as an adult, and to drink alcohol.

To choose a paleo diet on the belief that it better fits our genetics sounds like it denies the evidence that our genetics have changed since then.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#187
post #179
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about all of the exceptions? Can you eat corn (domesticated some 9,000 years ago), sugar cane (8,000), or bananas (8,000) Wild almonds are toxic, but safe domesticated varieties started appearing some 5,000 years ago. Also, macadamia nuts have a similar problem, and they were domesticated only some 200 years ago. What about strawberries? Wild strawberries are edible, but tiny. It wasn't until about the 1400s tha…

If I had to invent a new diet with a simple short list of dietary requirements, I would only have two: forbid binary thinking/lists and require mandatory prioritization. Nothing wrong with a slice of birthday cake at grannie's 80th. Something hugely (lol) wrong with two packs of twinkies every lunch. The "newer" it is, the worse it probably is to eat, and the older it is, the better it probably is to eat. Do your wee…

"Moderation in all things", says Aristotle.

You've offered a different set of guidelines than the previous poster, but some of the same questions remain. What's "old" and what's "new"? Is corn new or old? What about almonds, which are toxic in the wild species, or taro which is toxic until processed? What about wheat?

Wild apples are not that edible. They are too astringent; crabapples. It's only through grafting of the very occasional tree with edible fruit that we get new edible cultivars. The Gala apple has only been around since the 1970s. Does that make it new? (Interesting story: Johnny Appleseed brought apple trees to the western frontier for making hard cider and apple jack, and not for eating. They were grown from seed, and only grafting preserves the taste.)

Domesticated sugarcane is older than most other plants we currently use. Should we prioritize sugarcane, because it's older? Or is it only foods species unchanged since 10,000 years ago that we should prioritize?

If you, like I, haven't inherited genetics from the indigenous peoples of the Americas, then your personal genetics have had less than 500 years to evolve for pineapple, corn, tomatoes, and other New World plants. Should we avoid New World plants and only eat things found in East Africa?

500 years ago isn't that long. That's almost exactly the same time that the Reinheitsgebot (German beer purity law) has been in place. How long does it take for a new food to become old? Your genetics have certainly not adapted to eat macadamia nuts from Australia, because they've been a crop for less than 200 years, and only Australian aborigines would have had any adaptations for them. Does that make those new or old to our genome?

Commercial production of macadamia nuts is about as old as Jack Daniel's. Should they have equal prioritization?

Believe it or not, but beer making is at least 7,000 years old. You can't say "Drinking it on a regular basis is about as stupid as eating arsenic or lead salts for kicks" because for it has been a daily drink for several thousand years. During the Babylonian era, "a daily ration of beer was provided for all citizens, the amount depending on one's social status" and "it was sometimes used to pay workers as part of their daily wages." During the Middle Ages it was safer to drink than water.

In fact, we've evolved in order to process alcohol better: "The studies on human ADH (alcohol dehydrogenase) gene have suggested Darwinian positive selection on the genetic variation of ADH1B His47 [52–54]. Alcohol consumption is a recent agriculture-related life style, and the adaptive selection has begun about 10 Kya" http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijeb/2011/484769/

Even if you think that the genetics of the paleo era outweigh the genetics of the last 10,000 years, our monkey/ape guts tell us that we did not evolve with the expectation of eating "a relatively modest hunk of meat" for most of our meals.

This tells me that you don't know the history of our food and your adjusting things up to fit your personal beliefs. Your last sentence is equally odd - my European genetic ancestry definitely co-evolved with animal husbandry to make it so I can drink cow's milk as an adult. You reject that genetic heritage because you're squeamish?

That's all fine as a personal or moral belief, but it doesn't make good sense as a general "mandatory" consideration.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#188
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you're using the body's metabolism to explain the metaphor to explain the body's metabolism. I don't think it's supposed to work that way. :) To highlight some of the difficulties: So, insulin shock is the specific heat of water and/or the heat of evaporation? Does fire "slam into" the water? As a technical point, there's a distinction between heat and temperature. The fire does not need to be "hot", it just need…

While I'm amused (Really I am, no sarcasm!) with the extension of the fire concept - I think you're just pulling at semantics of my metaphor =) You make a valid point - lets pull heat and temperature out of it. I'll take the whole metaphor out. If I were to waterdown the through process of ketogenic diets (which are what I'm talking about and share some things with Paleo) I would explain them as such: Insulin prevent…

I'm pleased that use are amused. Pulling at semantics usually gets me in trouble. :)

While I understand the hypothesis, we haven't even determined that a 'sugar rush' exists. Quoting from Wikipedia (Fount of All Knowledge), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_high#Nutrition.2C_food.2C... :

> Sugar does not cause hyperactivity in children. Double-blind trials have shown no difference in behavior between children given sugar-full or sugar-free diets, even in studies specifically looking at children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder or those considered sensitive to sugar.

From the citation, at http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a2769 :

> At least 12 double blind randomised controlled trials have examined how children react to diets containing different levels of sugar.2 None of these studies, not even studies looking specifically at children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, could detect any differences in behaviour between the children who had sugar and those who did not.3 This includes sugar from sweets, chocolate, and natural sources. Even in studies of those who were considered “sensitive” to sugar, children did not behave differently after eating sugar full or sugar-free diets.3

> Scientists have even studied how parents react to the sugar myth. When parents think their children have been given a drink containing sugar (even if it is really sugar-free), they rate their children’s behaviour as more hyperactive...

If a hypothesis depends on a mechanism we haven't observed, then I don't think it's likely to be real.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#189
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an issue of meal timing. Individual meals doesn't matter. Transient insulin spikes are irrelevant, what matters is your overall expenditure vs intake.

Insulin spikes are completely relevant, since insulin signals your fat cells to take up energy from your blood stream. Now you have no energy and feel hungry again.

It doesn't work that way. Show me a study that concludes that blood glucose levels have not been meaningfully increased after a meal due to it all going straight to adipose tissue -- in humans -- and I'll show you the next Nobel Prize winner.

Insulin spikes are irrelevant in so far as you will lose weight at a calorie deficit, insulin spikes or not. Also, fat can be synthesized in the absence of insulin spikes. http://www.jlr.org/content/30/11/1727

Physiologically, what matters is a caloric deficit. Execution wise, some foods make this easier than others, but that is highly individual.

"Reduced-calorie diets result in clinically meaningful weight loss regardless of which macronutrients they emphasize" http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#190
post #187
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had to invent a new diet with a simple short list of dietary requirements, I would only have two: forbid binary thinking/lists and require mandatory prioritization. Nothing wrong with a slice of birthday cake at grannie's 80th. Something hugely (lol) wrong with two packs of twinkies every lunch. The "newer" it is, the worse it probably is to eat, and the older it is, the better it probably is to eat. Do your wee…

"Moderation in all things", says Aristotle. You've offered a different set of guidelines than the previous poster, but some of the same questions remain. What's "old" and what's "new"? Is corn new or old? What about almonds, which are toxic in the wild species, or taro which is toxic until processed? What about wheat? Wild apples are not that edible. They are too astringent; crabapples. It's only through grafting of…

""Moderation in all things", says Aristotle."

Quite possibly the only thing all three of us agree with.

"What's "old" and what's "new"?"

I think you missed my very first line "forbid binary thinking"

Eat old instead of new, doesn't mean I need to spend all day ranking Jack Daniels vs Macadamia nuts therefore I MUST abandon eating salads and stick exclusively to pizza, hot pockets, and bags of pork rinds. If at the grocery store I momentarily agonize over the selection of Pears or Peaches I don't agonize for long I just grab whichever sounds better ... the solution to that never turns out to be microwaving pizza rolls.

"You reject that genetic heritage because you're squeamish?"

I reject it because I find it gross (squeamish, whatever) and my 10000 item supermarket provides me with 9999 alternatives. Well, fewer that are vaguely paleo compatible. But the point stands, I'm not 5 years old with mom saying "you have to eat your X". Variety and plenty means I don't eat it unless I want to. I don't particularly care for fried eggs either, that's OK, that leaves me with a mere 1e5 other things to cook and eat.

Its a bit different than a BDSM diet like low carb in that you don't "need" to eat three pounds of meat per day. Its more a general reordering of priorities.

Your argument is repeatedly analogous to the creationist claims WRT the missing link. OK you found a fossil filling one gap now, ha ha, now you have to find fossils filling two gaps. Um no. Well, OK you've stumped me on tomatoes vs pineapples, which is microscopically better for me, but rather than being paralyzed into a default of dorito consumption, I simply don't care because either are about a factor of 1000x healthier for me than a bag of doritos at snack time. Or maybe I'll eat some carrots for a snack instead.

Also WRT evolution not being a binary process, discussions of 500 years would only be relevant if you think the earth was created in 4000 BC. Its a little too short sighted. My oldest ancestors go back a couple billion years and my digestive system as it more or less is today is much older than 500 years. On the other hand widespread HFCS use is relatively new in the last few decades, kinda like widespread obesity. Correlation isn't causation, but given reasoned belief that chugging a 2L of regular mt dew per day might kill you in the long run, but eating a carrot a day absolutely will not kill you, its kind of a pascal's wager to eat the carrot at snack time. And there's nothing wrong with a little corn syrup once in a while ... but something hugely wrong with 40 pounds per capita per year (figure from corn.org for annual HFCS consumption, probably wildly low estimate)

Finally its a macronutrient diet, more or less, in that one individual species of apple vs another matters just about as much as the hair color of the cow you eat. They're not different enough to really matter. Its an intentional obfuscation of the issue to debate the color of cow hair to carefully avoid the bigger issue of debating celery stalk vs chocolate bar.

I will say that paleo as a diet and debating paleo is utterly incompatible with binary thinking. Its just oil and water. Religion and science.

I am very unimpressed with the alcohol citation about improved poison tolerance. As a thought experiment I would imagine we have some recent intense evolutionary pressure to detoxify lead. I propose an experiment where paleo diet fanatics exclude lead from their diet and the anti-paleo diet fanatics add as much lead dust to their diet as possible. After all, I'm sure its profitable to consume lead, and if the paleo side can't provide a detailed numerical analysis of which heavy metal is more or less toxic than any other heavy metal, we have a moral imperative to consume as much heavy metals as possible, or at least to never intentionally avoid them or encourage others to avoid eating heavy metals. My opinion disagrees. A little booze isn't the end of the world, but you're better off without ethanol in your blood.

"our monkey/ape guts tell us that we did not evolve with the expectation of eating "a relatively modest hunk of meat" for most of our meals."

I agree completely. That's why on long term average my individual diet averages out to a modest chunk of meat at dinner. Sometimes more sometimes less. Fruits for breakfast, mostly, salad for lunch, mostly. Not unusual not to eat meat for dinner. But I like it, and when selected and prepared properly its more or less relatively good for me compared to numerous alternatives, so yeah a couple times per week sure. We may be arguing about the definition of "modest hunk", I'm not talking about eating an entire chicken by myself in one sitting or something. Chicken soup, yeah that's about right. Or a salad with sliced grilled chicken on it. Not a 32 oz steak.

"That's all fine as a personal or moral belief, but it doesn't make good sense as a general "mandatory" consideration."

That's very much like arguing that you cannot order a precise numerical ranking of the quality of different exercises across a world wide range of possible exercises, for example, which is the superior exercise by numerical analysis, slalom snow skiing or jumping jacks or tai chi, furthermore not everyone has identical personal preferences, therefore that lack of universal consensus of numerical rank-ability means no one should ever try to judge the relative value of any exercise under any circumstance and no one should Ever exercise on a regular basis. 100% disagree with both my analogy, your argument, how your conclusion was made, and the conclusion itself.

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