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“Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

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Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#51

Post by olefoo »

dualogy wrote: post #47
ellyagg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, it's a review by someone with an axe to grind about a book by someone with an axe to grind. I'm not a "Paleo" person, but the hinting in this article that folks trying to infer better living patterns from the past are loons is faintly preposterous. We have just mounds of evidence (which doubters are free to research themselves) that many pre-Agricultural societies had (and have, actually) far lower rates of t…

> Hunters and gatherers weren't obese. We are. By irrefutable inference, some lifestyle difference explains this Yeah and that difference is the sheer abundance of cheap calories. People can and did get fat when eating too many calories of Paleo (easily possible if you overemphasize the fatty meats and sweeter fruits), people can and did lean out on breads and junk-food by simply consuming fewer calories than they ex…

It's not even the Paleolithic that had a 'better' diet; sugar production in industrial quantities didn't happen until the 19th century and High Fructose Corn Syrup [1] didn't become a staple of the human diet until the second half of the 20th century.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fructose_corn_syrup

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#52

Post by kbenson »

tjogin wrote: post #46
ellyagg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, it's a review by someone with an axe to grind about a book by someone with an axe to grind. I'm not a "Paleo" person, but the hinting in this article that folks trying to infer better living patterns from the past are loons is faintly preposterous. We have just mounds of evidence (which doubters are free to research themselves) that many pre-Agricultural societies had (and have, actually) far lower rates of t…

Diseases of civilization are a function of congregation, not eating grains. Obesity is the result of a caloric surplus. Cavemen didn't have that luxury.

> Cavemen didn't have that luxury.

Do we know that? I thought there was some research indicating the hunter-gatherer societies actually had to devote rather little (comparative) time to gathering sustenance.[1]

Is there some research I should be aware of that refutes this, or at least asserts more information as to a likelihood one way or the other?

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_affluent_society

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#53

Post by tjogin »

kbenson wrote: post #52
tjogin wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diseases of civilization are a function of congregation, not eating grains. Obesity is the result of a caloric surplus. Cavemen didn't have that luxury.

> Cavemen didn't have that luxury. Do we know that? I thought there was some research indicating the hunter-gatherer societies actually had to devote rather little (comparative) time to gathering sustenance.[1] Is there some research I should be aware of that refutes this, or at least asserts more information as to a likelihood one way or the other? [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_affluent_society

If they were obese it's because they had a caloric surplus (I doubt it).

The laws of thermodynamics applied then, as they do now.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#54

Post by s_baby »

dualogy wrote: post #47
ellyagg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, it's a review by someone with an axe to grind about a book by someone with an axe to grind. I'm not a "Paleo" person, but the hinting in this article that folks trying to infer better living patterns from the past are loons is faintly preposterous. We have just mounds of evidence (which doubters are free to research themselves) that many pre-Agricultural societies had (and have, actually) far lower rates of t…

> Hunters and gatherers weren't obese. We are. By irrefutable inference, some lifestyle difference explains this Yeah and that difference is the sheer abundance of cheap calories. People can and did get fat when eating too many calories of Paleo (easily possible if you overemphasize the fatty meats and sweeter fruits), people can and did lean out on breads and junk-food by simply consuming fewer calories than they ex…

Not really. There's a pretty clear connection between insulin levels and weight gain. Spiking your insulin levels by eating carbohydrates will effect how calories are used for many if not all people.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#55

Post by jonahx »

stcredzero wrote: post #14

> Cordain, who has a Ph.D in exercise physiology, assured Zuk that human beings had not had time to adapt to foods that only became staples with the advent of agriculture. “It’s only been ten thousand years,” he explained. Zuk’s response: “Plenty of time.” We have documented measurable evolution in large mammals in timespans of only several hundred years.

The "plenty of time" of time argument only shows that Cordain's reasoning is not bulletproof -- it doesn't refute it. Just because it's possible to adapt to a new condition doesn't mean we will, or that our adaptation will be complete. Lactase persistence may be evidence of evolution in a relatively short time, but by the same token lactose intolerance is evidence of its failure.

So while it's a fair point of criticism of the paleo argument, it's not enough to dismiss it. If you find a flaw in the proof of a theorem, you have not disproved the theorem.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#56

Post by lifeisstillgood »

One of the things that make me wonder is the idea that there are " diseases if civilisation" (accepted, look at increases in asthma etc) and that they are caused by diet

Of all the things that exist in the modern world, lead in atmosphere, weird fungicides in our furniture fire retardants, etc, why is it the one thing that is under individual control that is the main contributor to our malease - it seems far too linked to the common "if you are ill / poor then you aren't trying hard enough" meme that Oprah et al tend to fall for.

Anyway, as a set of nutritional guidelines it seems reasonable, if only because the avergage food obsessed westerner has aceess to a range of fruit veg and meat that our ancestors never dreamed of.

Now stop trying to persuade me to agree with you so that I can be saved - it smacks of religion

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#57

Post by dsirijus »

graeme wrote: post #45
com2kid wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny part here being that with Paleo, this becomes "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly meat."

Depends on what you mean by mostly. If the quotes are meant calorie wise, then there is disagreement. If the quotes refer to volume, then they agree. Most paleo authorities say that plants should fill most of the plate. Anyone know what Pollan meant?

In the spirit of the simplicity of the quote, I'd bet on volume.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#58

Post by miles »

jacalata wrote: post #25
brd wrote: post #9

The biggest problem I have with Zuk is that the entire premise of this book is based on a straw man argument. The "Paleo" in paleo diet comes from the fact that there was a clear dip in human health once we entered the neolithic era (i.e. started farming). We are not emulating a caveman's diet per se, we are simply trying to find and remove what caused that original dip in health. To anyone uninformed about the paleo…

google "The Paleo Diet", first result http://thepaleodiet.com/ : The Paleo Diet is based upon eating wholesome, contemporary foods from the food groups our hunter-gatherer ancestors would have thrived on during the Paleolithic era, the time period from about 2.6 million years ago to the beginning of the agricultural revolution, about 10,000 years ago. These foods include fresh meats (preferably grass-produced or free…

The idea that grains and legumes cause obesity is absurd. Asians have been living largely on both for thousands of years [1,2] and have enjoyed incredibly low obesity rates [3] until recently. Consuming more calories than you expend is the culprit here, not grains and legumes. If we want to single out some of the leading causes for overconsumption, I'd point to refined sugar, oils (pure fat), junk food, and high fructose corn syrup.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice#Asia [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soy_bean#Asia [3] http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesit...

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#59

Post by jonny_eh »

jonahx wrote: post #55
stcredzero wrote: post #14

> Cordain, who has a Ph.D in exercise physiology, assured Zuk that human beings had not had time to adapt to foods that only became staples with the advent of agriculture. “It’s only been ten thousand years,” he explained. Zuk’s response: “Plenty of time.” We have documented measurable evolution in large mammals in timespans of only several hundred years.

The "plenty of time" of time argument only shows that Cordain's reasoning is not bulletproof -- it doesn't refute it. Just because it's possible to adapt to a new condition doesn't mean we will, or that our adaptation will be complete. Lactase persistence may be evidence of evolution in a relatively short time, but by the same token lactose intolerance is evidence of its failure. So while it's a fair point of critici…

That's shifting the burden of proof. It's Cordain that is making the claim and promoting a diet, he should provide the evidence, not Zuk.

Re: “Paleofantasy”: Stone Age delusions

#60

Post by juskrey »

I am really stunned, how rigorously people protect their right to disease, premature aging and unnatural death. Do not question so called fruits of progress but require immediate proofs of mechanisms that have successfully worked for millions of years.
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