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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#281

Post by mrxd »

prudhvis wrote: post #204
mrxd wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I believe that gender imbalance in this (and other) professions is only indirectly related to gender. History disagrees with you. In the 1960s, programming was considered to be "women's work", like typing, filing and other clerical duties, while men did the engineering bit of actually building the machines. But people began to realize that software was difficult and important, so they decided women had t…

> They also distributed the answers to the aptitude tests within all-male fraternities and clubs. Do you have any source for this?

That's from the book "The Computer Boys Take Over" - you can find a summary here: http://stanford.io/x6Pk35

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#282

Post by andrewflnr »

colmvp wrote: post #26
gonehome wrote: post #3

This closely aligns with my thoughts on the issue. While I understand the good intentions behind girl only events, women in CS meetups and girl geek dinners/mentors something about it feels wrong to me. It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against.

"It's like fighting an exclusion problem with just a different type of exclusion and simultaneously reinforcing the divisions they're rallying against." In numerous tech offices/companies I've visited in the Bay Area and New York, I've met more foreign born white male programmers than African American male and Hispanic American male programmers put together. And despite the so-called high number of Asian males in CS…

Anecdote alert: at the first place to give me an internship, about half the engineering staff were "Asian", especially if you count the Indian guy (Indians are Asians too, by any rational definition ;)). The CTO was Chinese and at least one of the major founders. The company was a spinoff of research at CaltTech, FWIW. Maybe it's different down here.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#283

Post by andrewflnr »

eru wrote: post #212
mrxd wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally I believe that gender imbalance in this (and other) professions is only indirectly related to gender. History disagrees with you. In the 1960s, programming was considered to be "women's work", like typing, filing and other clerical duties, while men did the engineering bit of actually building the machines. But people began to realize that software was difficult and important, so they decided women had t…

Fraternity boys yearning to become programmers, and socially inept nerds?

It's not as crazy as it sounds. Once "socially inept" becomes cool, well, people will do almost anything to be cool. I don't know how much of that was in play at the time.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#284

Post by andrewflnr »

gonehome wrote: post #126
hackinthebochs wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn't that an argument that all schools should then be boy/girl schools, always separating kids based on their sex? After all, this is the most effective model right? It might be, and I'm not completely sure it isn't the best model. But work environments are totally different situation. School is an exception because it is at a time where kids are in their formative years, thus creating artificial environments that…

I think that ignores the fact that socialization is one of the most important things you learn at school. I'd imagine separating sexes would just create even more stereotypes/generalizations from both sides.

Separate classes, then throw them together for breaks?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#285

Post by newnewnew »

im3w1l wrote: post #252
newnewnew wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japanese and Chinese Americans have faced lots of historical obstacles, from anti-miscegenation laws to internment camps. Ever hear of the Chinese Exclusion Act? They still face a lot of stereotypes. There's a big culture and language divide between the cultures of South/East Asia and those of Europeans. I don't buy the idea that they are "probationary whites". They just happen to be really, really good at what they…

>African immigrants to America are a high-achieving group, outperforming whites in income. So they manage to beat the stereotypes while African-Americans do not. Isn't that an argument FOR survivor-ship bias? How do the ethnic asians that immigrated a century ago stack up against the newly immigrated ones?

hmmm, so would you suppose that children of African immigrants (the Obamas of the world) run into the negative stereotypes of our society and start to fall in socioeconomic standing towards the level of African Americans?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#286

Post by hackinthebochs »

andrewflnr wrote: post #279
hackinthebochs wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me take the more extreme example of racism as an illustrative point. "If we had a 'white entertainment television' that would be racist, therefore BET is racist". This is the sort of argument you made and hopefully its obvious how ridiculous it is to you. The contexts for whites and blacks in this country are completely different (dominant culture, etc). Thus something being racist when it re-enforces the dominan…

BET is racist in exactly the same way "WET" would be, which is to say not much, because no one is actually locked out of anything (plus WET is a terrible name). Whatever else you think of me, don't just assume I'm inconsistent. Now you're saying that racism is "not the same" (I'm assuming that means "not bad"?) if it's in favor of people who are normally discriminated against by the "dominant" culture. It amounts to…

Sure, you're consistent. But that isn't saying much. You really should expand your understanding of the word racism, along with the history of racism in the US (assuming you're from the US). If you think a supposed WET is analogous to a BET then you are tragically under or misinformed regarding the issue of race.

Your rather narrow and closed minded misunderstanding of race likely mirrors your misunderstanding of issues regarding gender. This isn't the place for an in-depth discussion about these issues, nor am I the right person to offer it. So we can leave it at that if you prefer.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#287

Post by eli_gottlieb »

andrewflnr wrote: post #280
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I just want to speak the hell up right now. I have seen misogyny in the workplace. It really does exist, and there really is an Old Boys Club culture in some workplaces. So step one to lowering the barriers of entry to women is to stop speaking of or treating women like negligible trivialities.

Speak up in the workplace, then. That's not "gender hand-wringing", that's taking action to correct specific injustices, and it's a good thing. It's also much harder than handwringing or making comments on HN (like this one).

I have many past workplaces <_<.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#288

Post by UnoriginalGuy »

EliRivers wrote: post #278
UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So step one to lowering the barriers of entry to women is to stop speaking of or treating women like negligible trivialities. The point you're trying to make is lost on me. You come here to "speak the hell up" but you didn't really manage to /say/ anything except to point out that women aren't "negligible trivialities" whatever the heck that even means.

"Negligible" is an adjective meaning "such a small amount that it has no significance", and a "triviality" is something of no serious concern. Is English not your first language, or do you have the reading skills of an eight year old?

English is in fact my first language. Cannot comment on my read age (since I don't know).

In general I am well aware of the word's definitions, but what I wanted to get at was what the OP meant by them or what they were getting at in general.

Seems they were very angry but weren't able to really clarify what about. Their point wasn't fleshed out even enough to convey to others.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#289

Post by andrewflnr »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #286
andrewflnr wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BET is racist in exactly the same way "WET" would be, which is to say not much, because no one is actually locked out of anything (plus WET is a terrible name). Whatever else you think of me, don't just assume I'm inconsistent. Now you're saying that racism is "not the same" (I'm assuming that means "not bad"?) if it's in favor of people who are normally discriminated against by the "dominant" culture. It amounts to…

Sure, you're consistent. But that isn't saying much. You really should expand your understanding of the word racism, along with the history of racism in the US (assuming you're from the US). If you think a supposed WET is analogous to a BET then you are tragically under or misinformed regarding the issue of race. Your rather narrow and closed minded misunderstanding of race likely mirrors your misunderstanding of iss…

Now you're just being condescending. If you don't think the conversation is productive, you can say that. Assigning me a research project and pretending to graciously let me walk away is a cop-out.

I'm only interested in the meanings of words to the extent they illuminate real objects and concepts, and inform real actions. I'm not interested in cultural baggage except as a stumbling block to understanding to be removed. I understand, to some extent, that people have complicated motives from a wide range of sources, mostly irrational, which makes them hard to get a logical handle on. I don't believe morality is that complicated. I can't shake the feeling that "WET" is morally stupider, but I don't have a good reason, and I try to ignore feelings like that. If that makes me "narrow and closed minded" in your mind, I can handle that. In that case, it is indeed unlikely that our conversation will be productive.

If I'm closed-minded, do you see how your comments look to me, pushing against my idea of literal equality for some abstract form of "corrected" equality? Then turning to diversionary tactics when you can't answer my argument (and a peripheral one at that)?

I guess the point was, girl-only gatherings seem more like a part of the end-game of equalization, except to the extent pretending the game is over makes it get over faster. Point mostly taken about "creating environments...".

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#290

Post by EliRivers »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #288
EliRivers wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Negligible" is an adjective meaning "such a small amount that it has no significance", and a "triviality" is something of no serious concern. Is English not your first language, or do you have the reading skills of an eight year old?

English is in fact my first language. Cannot comment on my read age (since I don't know). In general I am well aware of the word's definitions, but what I wanted to get at was what the OP meant by them or what they were getting at in general. Seems they were very angry but weren't able to really clarify what about. Their point wasn't fleshed out even enough to convey to others.

Perfect. That is SO much better than your previous comment and my comment in response. Clear, to the point, adding to the conversation and inviting the OP to more clearly state their case. More please!
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