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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#251

Post by im3w1l »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #241
Tichy wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did I say about women that you disagree with? If I said that men tend to be just the supplemental earners in a family it would be false. At least for the present time. I don't understand what you might find offensive about that - I didn't say that women are incapable of earning a lot of money, just that they often voluntarily choose to not do so. And I don't think it is going to change, because women get pregnan…

I am not offended. I am just surprised at the level of stupidity on display here. The same level of stupidity that exists for generalising /anything/ about 50% out of a collection of things. Let's try it with men. Men are tend towards being incapable of feeling emotions. Men are very violent, and drunk. Men are afraid of commitment. Men hate talking about things. Men are very impersonal toward children. Men enjoy spo…

>How useless are these sorts of statements?

they are useful.

>How does it help anyone to pigeonhole a class of people as having certain stereotypical attributes?

we understand the world better and can make better predictions and decisions.

>It's not science

sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

>it's bigotry.

that word doesn't even mean anything except that you disagree.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#252

Post by im3w1l »

newnewnew wrote: post #196
kaa2102 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't an apples to apples comparison. Asian Americans have never systematically disenfranchised white Americans. However, you bring up some interesting points but that I have a couple of issues with including probationary whiteness, survivor-ship bias, and performance vs. access. I don't think Asian Americans had to drink from the "colored" fountain. It's easier to win the game if you are allowed to play. In man…

Japanese and Chinese Americans have faced lots of historical obstacles, from anti-miscegenation laws to internment camps. Ever hear of the Chinese Exclusion Act? They still face a lot of stereotypes. There's a big culture and language divide between the cultures of South/East Asia and those of Europeans. I don't buy the idea that they are "probationary whites". They just happen to be really, really good at what they…

>African immigrants to America are a high-achieving group, outperforming whites in income. So they manage to beat the stereotypes while African-Americans do not.

Isn't that an argument FOR survivor-ship bias?

How do the ethnic asians that immigrated a century ago stack up against the newly immigrated ones?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#253

Post by gavanwoolery »

rayiner wrote: post #133
cletus wrote: post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

> For me, I'm not sure how productive all this gender hand-wringing really is. It's potentially very productive. The culture of CS, "judgmental introversion" as you put it, is not anything intrinsic to CS. Indeed, software engineering is a profession that demands a high level of communication and cooperation. The "lone hacker" stereotype is in my opinion quite the opposite of the kind of people you want in software e…

So we should force women to become engineers because they are afraid to enter engineering because they fear that they will be in the minority? I don't think you give women enough credit - they are tougher than that and have fought way harder battles as far as sexism is concerned.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#254

Post by im3w1l »

mitchty wrote: post #59
minamea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could it be taken too far? But I'm under the impression that today we offer women-only CS courses and the norm has become women get hired over equally or more qualified men in the name of eradicating sexism. I humbly suggest this is taking it too far. I don't want to automatically get turned down for a job because a woman applied. I don't want to automatically get turned down for CS help because I am the wrong gend…

So I understand what you're saying about the "women only or prioritization". But, and note I'm obviously a guy, you're assuming the worst possible reasoning for this. Lets say the whole thing is trying to reverse the course direction of CS to help get more women in the field. We know that having equal amounts of both genders helps and strengthens teams. So while the preferential hiring of women might at first glance…

Completely fictitious example: Assume science showed that homogeneous teams worked best in industry X. Would it be okay to enforce that?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#255

Post by im3w1l »

ck2 wrote: post #211

There are no girls in computer science, just like there are no boys in computer science. There are however, women in computer science. This is part of the problem, women are not children, girls are and society sadly enforces this. Think of how strange a title would be if someone talked about "being a boy in computer science".

Bad boy. Playboy. Home boy. "Give em hell boys"

I agree that using girl in place of woman is more common though.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#256

Post by astrieanna »

rachelbythebay wrote: post #189
astrieanna wrote: post #47

>I liked it because it was hard, and considered hard. >And I didn’t even notice that I was the only female in the >class— a lack of awareness that persisted well into >university. I took programming classes in high school, and assumed that the hugely skewed gender ratio was just my school being weird. It wasn't until people were surprised/impressed that I was planning to major in CS that I started googling, and disco…

I don't wear unisex t-shirts. They tend to "gap" and just hang all wrong on me. Makeup? Eh. It depends. More interested in coding than parties? Nope. I'd much rather be at a party, assuming party means "a group of friends having food and drinks, talking and laughing late into the night". People are far more interesting than these computers. I don't like "because it's there" as a reason to do something. You expressed…

I'm kind of confused by your last sentence about being excluded from a conversation.

My points of similarity were about wanting to find someone with this arbitrary, absurd set of surface-level similarities because it would make me feel less different/unique. You don't fit them, which is totally cool, and really doesn't mean anything. Your post sounded a little bit defensive (as I read it), and I'm sorry if I made you feel excluded or anything by listing properties that we happen to differ on.

I guess we just disagree on reasons to do things. The process of solving problems tends to be what interests me, more than the final product. Needing the solution is a good way to make sure a project actually gets finished, but its the process of solving/building that is more interesting to me. If a tool/language/etc is considered hard, then I want to use it because that might mean it's more powerful or it's mind-expanding in some way (for the right kind of hard). I wouldn't phrase it as "because it's there", but I guess that's also reasonable.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#257

Post by astrieanna »

gavanwoolery wrote: post #253
rayiner wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For me, I'm not sure how productive all this gender hand-wringing really is. It's potentially very productive. The culture of CS, "judgmental introversion" as you put it, is not anything intrinsic to CS. Indeed, software engineering is a profession that demands a high level of communication and cooperation. The "lone hacker" stereotype is in my opinion quite the opposite of the kind of people you want in software e…

So we should force women to become engineers because they are afraid to enter engineering because they fear that they will be in the minority? I don't think you give women enough credit - they are tougher than that and have fought way harder battles as far as sexism is concerned.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. They are providing more opportunities for women to discover that they might like engineering -- more reasons not to write it off before they realize that it's worth fighting for.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#259

Post by ahoyhere »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #119
jimzvz wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on Yes and if young girls' early exposure to the industry consists largely of "Girl-centric CS activities" then they will immediately wonder why they need such special treatment. People do not want want to be segregated, even if it is, supposedly, for a good cause.

Can we please let the women speak for themselves? I absolutely abhor when white people tell me that as a black person I should not want scholarships/education programs/tutoring/etc geared specifically towards people of my background.

I'm a woman and when I say such things, women either A) (subtly) turn away from me and act like I'm the Crazy Racist Uncle that everybody pretends doesn't exist, or B) tell me to shut up.

But the fact is, there's no evidence that these endeavors help. None at all. There's plenty of evidence that they hurt -- stereotype threat and the implication that the OP gave, which is that special treatment indicates a special lack.

Note that we're not talking about scholarships here.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#260

Post by TheZenPsycho »

Tichy wrote: post #249
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nurses and nannies don't earn as much money as IT specialists, but women don't need so much money. They tend to be the supplemental earners in a family, not the main breadwinners. Simple as that. Really, honestly. Think about what you are saying here.

Explain it? You take offense by the "don't need so much money" or the "supplemental earners" thing? The latter is presumably simply a current statistical fact? Don't need so much money - well I explained it. And as I said, any women who feels she needs more money is free to earn it, even today, and even in IT. Earning more money usually comes at a price. I don't understand why you find it offensive to assume that som…

It's problematic that you are using dubious uncited statistics to make broad statements about the status and desires of over 50% of the human population. You may as well say "Jews make plenty of money" or "Negros are happy to work for free", for how intelligent it makes you sound.
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