On being a girl in computer science - a confession • Hacker News Board

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#271

Post by rayiner » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 4:22 PM UTC

LockeWatts wrote: post #178

rayiner wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you have in CS now isn't "blind meritocracy." If the male culture is turning away qualified women, you don't have a meritocracy.

Except that doesn't make sense. Given the assumption that it's a meritocracy, then qualified women won't be turned away. If women are being turned away, then they should be being turned away at a rate equal to men, relative to their applicant pool. If there are less women applying in the first place, then the problem exists in the educational\ preparatory stages of one's career. The solution should be directed there,…

> Given the assumption that it's a meritocracy, then qualified women won't be turned away.

I'm saying that the assumption that it's a meritocracy is incorrect.

> If there are less women applying in the first place, then the problem exists in the educational\ preparatory stages of one's career.

Education doesn't change the fact that ambitious women don't want to be in the 10-20% minority in an engineering company. Hell, it doesn't change the fact that they don't want to be the 10-20% minority in computer science programs. Careers are up-hill battles as it is, and who wants to add the additional challenge of being a minority? People who want to maximize their potential success are going to go into professions where they don't have to deal with these headwinds.

And that phenomenon undermines your meritocracy.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#272

Post by hackinthebochs » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 4:34 PM UTC

astrieanna wrote: post #256

rachelbythebay wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't wear unisex t-shirts. They tend to "gap" and just hang all wrong on me. Makeup? Eh. It depends. More interested in coding than parties? Nope. I'd much rather be at a party, assuming party means "a group of friends having food and drinks, talking and laughing late into the night". People are far more interesting than these computers. I don't like "because it's there" as a reason to do something. You expressed…

I'm kind of confused by your last sentence about being excluded from a conversation. My points of similarity were about wanting to find someone with this arbitrary, absurd set of surface-level similarities because it would make me feel less different/unique. You don't fit them, which is totally cool, and really doesn't mean anything. Your post sounded a little bit defensive (as I read it), and I'm sorry if I made you…

> but its the process of solving/building that is more interesting to me.

I'm with you on that one. I got into programming because I saw it as solving problems distilled down to its purest form. Whether the result of what I'm working on is interesting or useful in its own right was a distant concern. Its the process of exercising your creative capacity and coming up with fresh insights that motivates me (coming up with a novel elegant solution is better than any drug).

I often feel out of place on HN because of the huge focus on thing that's being built, rather than the process itself. It's completely foreign to me to think of the programming aspect as a means to an end. But I see that sentiment around here all the time. Just goes to show that there are many reasons to get into CS. Unfortunately those that do it for the sheer enjoyment of solving problems (whether useful or the project euler variety) seem to be a dying breed.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#273

Post by obstacle1 » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 4:55 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #269

obstacle1 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the male culture is turning away qualified women Is there any evidence that this is happening?

I don't know any women in CS. But analogizing from my experience in the legal profession, I think it's a huge practical concern for women. When my female friends were looking at what firms to take jobs at, they very heavily weighed statistics like the percentage of female partners. My wife accepted at her firm partly because one of the departments she was interested in was female-dominated--had a large number of fema…

None of that is hard evidence, though. We could play the anecdote game endlessly.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#274

Post by Tichy » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 5:02 PM UTC

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #267

Tichy wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contrary to you I actually provided a citation, you just refused to look at it. Or have you? So I am curious about your definition of "dubious uncited statistics". Do you believe my statistics are wrong, and what makes you think so (citations?)?. The only thing that's dumb is arguing with a psycho. I guess we are done, unless you can provide any substantial arguments at all.

You provided a link to a shitty looking book on amazon. That doesn't make you credible.

Most research papers look pretty shitty. So you dismiss the argument because it isn't a fancy infographic? What exactly do you want, or what would be a credible source for you? The book provides more citations, in case you don't want to take the author for his word.

In any case I take it you didn't read it (the free Kindle intro).

I found another link today that could be relevant to you: http://lesswrong.com/lw/72d/strategic_ignorance_and_plausibl... (Less Wrong on Strategic Ignorance). I guess it's easier to just cling to feminist ideology than to check facts...

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#275

Post by aln » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 5:33 PM UTC

astrieanna wrote: post #57

aln wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are good and bad qualities to the CS events catered towards women. I think they are good for women of certain age groups (maybe 18 and older?) who might have been discouraged from or misinformed about the field. For young girls, these events are probably unnecessary and reinforce the stereotypes. The events and boot camps made specifically for women to learn to code/learn about various opportunities are great,…

I'm not sure that going to a programming workshop for girls as a kid would have made me think what programming wasn't for girls. Coming to a "not for girls" signal involves realizing that they're having the event to increase female participation, rather than just because they want an all-girls event -- like girls scouts being just for girls. The "for girls" labeling is also for the parents at that age. If you want to…

There is a male equivalent to girl scouts- boy scouts/eagle scouts. There isn't a male equivalent to these events, and middle-school aged kids and above could definitely figure this out.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#276

Post by solistice » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 6:03 PM UTC

socillion wrote: post #80

solistice wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"U a gurl on ze interwebs? I call le fake". Maybe it's that kind of attitude. I find it intresting that "No girls on the internet" originally meant "No gender bias on the internet", but the meaning was perverted. But statements like that (I sometimes make them myself in jest, but you never know how the opposite side will interpret it),they just add to the exclusion of girls in programming.

That attitude/meme exists because a large portion of people who go out of their way to appear female on the internet are actually male. 5 years ago it was an extremely easy way to get free stuff in games. If you're representing yourself as a girl online, people will assume you're doing that specifically to get preferential treatment - of course stereotypes like that aren't universally true, but enough people do that…

But then gaming is one of the main ways kids get hooked on computers, and then decide they might want to try out Computer Science. I remember how I was playing Anno 1602 on my Windows 95 machine when I was 8, and how that sooner or later influenced me to start programming.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#277

Post by EliRivers » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 7:11 PM UTC

MrScruff wrote: post #242

EliRivers wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I'm no expert in the field, I think the culture of veterinary science is significantly different. So different that it's not a useful analogy. Here are my reasons: Vets need qualifications; there are very few vets who just kind of taught themselves by cutting up animals and experiementing with giving them different drugs. Whilst experience counts for a lot, I really don't see experienced vets looking at a new…

Vets need qualifications; there are very few vets who just kind of taught themselves by cutting up animals and experiementing with giving them different drugs. Whilst experience counts for a lot, I really don't see experienced vets looking at a new vets work and saying "Hur! Fuckin Noob!". Contrast this with the common perception amongst (some, by no means all) programmers that a degree really doesn't mean a lot when…

I'm saying that one of the things that may be keeping women from going into CS is that (compared to veterinary science) programmers come across as unprofessional immature dickheads far more than vets do (and, in my experience, ARE unprofessional immature dickheads far more frequently than vets). Men seem to be more willing to put up with this (and indeed, in some cases seem to embrace it).

Vets had a much easier ride in making their profession appear to be a sensible choice for the young lady deciding on a career.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#278

Post by EliRivers » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 8:18 PM UTC

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #240

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I just want to speak the hell up right now. I have seen misogyny in the workplace. It really does exist, and there really is an Old Boys Club culture in some workplaces. So step one to lowering the barriers of entry to women is to stop speaking of or treating women like negligible trivialities.

> So step one to lowering the barriers of entry to women is to stop speaking of or treating women like negligible trivialities. The point you're trying to make is lost on me. You come here to "speak the hell up" but you didn't really manage to /say/ anything except to point out that women aren't "negligible trivialities" whatever the heck that even means.

"Negligible" is an adjective meaning "such a small amount that it has no significance", and a "triviality" is something of no serious concern.

Is English not your first language, or do you have the reading skills of an eight year old?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#279

Post by andrewflnr » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 8:54 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #268

andrewflnr wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "the contexts are different"? I mean, I know they feel different, which is partly why I tried to compare it to camping, where no one cares. I don't think I see how switching labels is "shallow" except that it's easy to think of, and even if all it brings to light is another inequality, it's worth keeping in mind.

Let me take the more extreme example of racism as an illustrative point. "If we had a 'white entertainment television' that would be racist, therefore BET is racist". This is the sort of argument you made and hopefully its obvious how ridiculous it is to you. The contexts for whites and blacks in this country are completely different (dominant culture, etc). Thus something being racist when it re-enforces the dominan…

BET is racist in exactly the same way "WET" would be, which is to say not much, because no one is actually locked out of anything (plus WET is a terrible name). Whatever else you think of me, don't just assume I'm inconsistent.

Now you're saying that racism is "not the same" (I'm assuming that means "not bad"?) if it's in favor of people who are normally discriminated against by the "dominant" culture. It amounts to justifying one person's bad behavior by pointing out someone else's, which simply doesn't qualify as a moral argument. If this is the only reason BET is okay and WET is not, I think it's a lame one.

In the case of television networks, it doesn't really matter. But I refuse to accept this mushy "different contexts" argument to justify anyone's wrong or stupid behavior. The whole point of striving for equality is to get rid of these different contexts, not perpetuate them. Be the change you want to see.

There is a certain sense in which BET may be less stupid than WET, which is if being black was a strong selector for liking some content over others. This is, AFAICT, less the case with "white" people, so WET makes less sense. This kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about girls' CS events because, hey, the girls want to get together and hack. They can do their own thing if they want. That's the key, that's what needs to get into people's psyches: "You can do your own thing if you want."

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#280

Post by andrewflnr » Sun, Mar 10, 2013, 8:59 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #221

cletus wrote: post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

Ok, I just want to speak the hell up right now. I have seen misogyny in the workplace. It really does exist, and there really is an Old Boys Club culture in some workplaces. So step one to lowering the barriers of entry to women is to stop speaking of or treating women like negligible trivialities.

Speak up in the workplace, then. That's not "gender hand-wringing", that's taking action to correct specific injustices, and it's a good thing. It's also much harder than handwringing or making comments on HN (like this one).