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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#261

Post by gngeal »

rayiner wrote: post #133
cletus wrote: post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

> For me, I'm not sure how productive all this gender hand-wringing really is. It's potentially very productive. The culture of CS, "judgmental introversion" as you put it, is not anything intrinsic to CS. Indeed, software engineering is a profession that demands a high level of communication and cooperation. The "lone hacker" stereotype is in my opinion quite the opposite of the kind of people you want in software e…

"The culture of CS, "judgmental introversion" as you put it, is not anything intrinsic to CS. Indeed, software engineering is a profession that demands a high level of communication and cooperation."

Except that 1) CS has nothing to do with software engineering, 2) a cursory review of the current field of software reveals all too easily that the current breed of "software engineers" haven't learned their lesson from the 1970s and 1980s. Why do you ascribe the ability to communicate and cooperate to people who perpetually reinvent the same stuff all over again and aren't bothered by it in the least is beyond me.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#262

Post by ahoyhere »

I agree with the author about the questionable nature of women-focused events.

Here's why:

Do girl-only schools produce more scientists, mathematicians, or programmers? That's the vital bit of research people need to know. Some research suggests that they boost test scores in those subjects, but do they change career outcomes?

It doesn't look like it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-sex_education#Effects_of...

The effects of all-girls schooling only seems to improve schooling-related effects, e.g. "More homework completed" and "More enjoyment of school."

And then there is the very problem of stereotype threat:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rl...

Far be it from me to tell people not to get together in whatever clique-y group they like, but what gets me is that women and men assume that because I have breasts, I agree with their viewpoints.

Like the OP, I never really connected with girls when I was young and I was anti-girly stuff. This, I got over. I learned that it's just as idiotic to (de)value somebody for hating makeup as it is to (de)value somebody for loving it. I have friends of all kinds now and respect that everybody is different.

But my worldviews are not shared by most women (or vice versa). And the most sexist things that have happened to me have been originated by other women who assumed I was like them. I have been cited for other people's agendas (which I disagree with), had my opinions devalued, I've been called sexist, I have been attacked, I have been told my experiences and viewpoint are "wrong," etc. etc.

This doesn't do anything worse to me than annoy me, but I've seen it really hurt women and men who "give more fucks" than I do.

I understand that people are (mostly) trying to do good things with the women-only and women-focused stuff. But they are creating stereotypes of their own, sexism of a different flavor. Any kind of division based on demographics is going to create antagonism.

This is human nature. It can't be helped. But if they can't bear to discuss it, and admit it, they are no better than the men they claim are sexist.

And I know some troglodytes are going to take this as an attack (it's not), or a reason to ignore women (it's not), but blah blah blah it's not for them and it's not as if they need more ammunition because they invent their own reality anyway.

This post is for you reasonable people who are organizing or thinking about organizing women-focused events. Question whether the research supports your beliefs. Spot the bias in yourselves and be respectful.

PS — if I have a daughter, I will tell her "YOU can do anything… if you are willing to be smart, and work your tail off when other people slack." And if I have a son, I will tell him "YOU can do anything… if you are willing to be smart, and work your tail off when other people slack." Because why would you use a label based on an accident of birth -- "boys" can, "girls" can -- instead of the most personal word in anyone's life -- you? How weird is it to teach kids to identify with their label, how weird is it that importance advice isn't aimed at them directly but instead at 51% of the world population?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#263

Post by Tycho »

vxNsr wrote: post #72
noonespecial wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That actually is the question I've been struggling with. She's only 7 and I've tried to keep her quite insulated from that kind of idea but it seems to just bleed in from all over the place. Since I've tuned out powerless to stop the bias from getting in, I've started to really think about the best way to help her rise above it.

I would answer pop culture, if she's watched any Disney show or movie ever, it immediately shows her exactly what is "acceptable" for a girl to do (Grrr, I hate Disney and that is gonna be the one channel I will never let my children watch, not to say there aren't worse channels but Disney is consistently bad). Someone (in the HN community) should do an in-depth blog post about how pop culture screws up our children'…

Even if pop culture seems to plant these expectations in the heads of children, that in itself is not a problem. Individuals can exercise their will power and act in contradiction of any expectations they're aware of.

The real problem is that children fear negative reactions from their peers and therefore abstain from many activities that would benefit them. Even boys are discouraged from doing anything remotely 'nerdy.' Most children are too scared to face the ridicule and ostracision that comes with embracing uncool activities. People will talk about you. I think it's particularly bad for girls.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#264

Post by Tichy »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #260
Tichy wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain it? You take offense by the "don't need so much money" or the "supplemental earners" thing? The latter is presumably simply a current statistical fact? Don't need so much money - well I explained it. And as I said, any women who feels she needs more money is free to earn it, even today, and even in IT. Earning more money usually comes at a price. I don't understand why you find it offensive to assume that som…

It's problematic that you are using dubious uncited statistics to make broad statements about the status and desires of over 50% of the human population. You may as well say "Jews make plenty of money" or "Negros are happy to work for free", for how intelligent it makes you sound.

Contrary to you I actually provided a citation, you just refused to look at it. Or have you? So I am curious about your definition of "dubious uncited statistics". Do you believe my statistics are wrong, and what makes you think so (citations?)?.

The only thing that's dumb is arguing with a psycho. I guess we are done, unless you can provide any substantial arguments at all.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#265

Post by andrewflnr »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #107
andrewflnr wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a choice between ignoring or "tackling it head on". In the early days of tackling some kind of systemic bias, it makes sense to talk about it all the time. Now that most everyone agrees it's a problem, it seems (to me) like the most productive way to move forward is to only point out sexism in specific instances where it occurs, providing reinforcement to help change our mental habits, making pariahs of pers…

I think you're conflating issues here. There is a point where continually beating the drum about overt sexism in the field becomes counter productive. But this is a different issue. Having women-centric CS events arent necessarily about shielding women from male sexism, but about creating environments where they won't feel intimidated and can commiserate with others who are experiencing or have experienced the same i…

What do you mean "the contexts are different"? I mean, I know they feel different, which is partly why I tried to compare it to camping, where no one cares. I don't think I see how switching labels is "shallow" except that it's easy to think of, and even if all it brings to light is another inequality, it's worth keeping in mind.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#266

Post by hackinthebochs »

ahoyhere wrote: post #259
hackinthebochs wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we please let the women speak for themselves? I absolutely abhor when white people tell me that as a black person I should not want scholarships/education programs/tutoring/etc geared specifically towards people of my background.

I'm a woman and when I say such things, women either A) (subtly) turn away from me and act like I'm the Crazy Racist Uncle that everybody pretends doesn't exist, or B) tell me to shut up. But the fact is, there's no evidence that these endeavors help. None at all. There's plenty of evidence that they hurt -- stereotype threat and the implication that the OP gave, which is that special treatment indicates a special la…

Show me the evidence that they hurt. And extrapolating or supposing stereotype threat is not evidence. The fact is these are mostly private people or private groups that put on these efforts. They need no "proof" that they work. The fact that women show up to these things is enough proof as far as they are concerned. If you want to completely eliminate these events then its up to you to show that they are actively harmful.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#267

Post by TheZenPsycho »

Tichy wrote: post #264
TheZenPsycho wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's problematic that you are using dubious uncited statistics to make broad statements about the status and desires of over 50% of the human population. You may as well say "Jews make plenty of money" or "Negros are happy to work for free", for how intelligent it makes you sound.

Contrary to you I actually provided a citation, you just refused to look at it. Or have you? So I am curious about your definition of "dubious uncited statistics". Do you believe my statistics are wrong, and what makes you think so (citations?)?. The only thing that's dumb is arguing with a psycho. I guess we are done, unless you can provide any substantial arguments at all.

You provided a link to a shitty looking book on amazon. That doesn't make you credible.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#268

Post by hackinthebochs »

andrewflnr wrote: post #265
hackinthebochs wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're conflating issues here. There is a point where continually beating the drum about overt sexism in the field becomes counter productive. But this is a different issue. Having women-centric CS events arent necessarily about shielding women from male sexism, but about creating environments where they won't feel intimidated and can commiserate with others who are experiencing or have experienced the same i…

What do you mean "the contexts are different"? I mean, I know they feel different, which is partly why I tried to compare it to camping, where no one cares. I don't think I see how switching labels is "shallow" except that it's easy to think of, and even if all it brings to light is another inequality, it's worth keeping in mind.

Let me take the more extreme example of racism as an illustrative point. "If we had a 'white entertainment television' that would be racist, therefore BET is racist". This is the sort of argument you made and hopefully its obvious how ridiculous it is to you. The contexts for whites and blacks in this country are completely different (dominant culture, etc). Thus something being racist when it re-enforces the dominant culture is not the same when its supporting a marginalized culture.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#269

Post by rayiner »

obstacle1 wrote: post #188
rayiner wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you have in CS now isn't "blind meritocracy." If the male culture is turning away qualified women, you don't have a meritocracy.

> If the male culture is turning away qualified women Is there any evidence that this is happening?

I don't know any women in CS. But analogizing from my experience in the legal profession, I think it's a huge practical concern for women. When my female friends were looking at what firms to take jobs at, they very heavily weighed statistics like the percentage of female partners. My wife accepted at her firm partly because one of the departments she was interested in was female-dominated--had a large number of female associates and a "critical mass" of female partners that brought in their own business and had pull within the firm.

Being a minority sucks, and ambitious people realize that in any organization getting to the top is as much about social ability and politick-ing as it is about ability. Working as a woman in a male-dominated culture may have zero impact on your work, but it's sure as hell going to have an impact on how easy it is for someone to form work relationships and leverage them to get ahead in the organization.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#270

Post by gonehome »

Anechoic wrote: post #140
gonehome wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On somewhat of a tangential note affirmative action is an interesting issue. Assuming the goal is to provide equal opportunity for those that were unlikely to have the same advantages as others through their childhood, I think making this distinction by race instead of socio-economic standing perpetuates a lot of racism. It suggests someone is disadvantaged simply because of their race. While it creates an ethnically…

Using a socio-economic standard you abstract away the race issue and give an advantage to those who have less money which has a stronger correlation to actually having less opportunity. The problem wrt to race and using a socio-economic standard is that there are almost as many whites in poverty as there are black people in total in the USA (~33 million vs ~38 million according to wiki). There is also the issue that…

I think it only solves the problem if people are no longer racist (which is a big issue with it).

In the current system white people in poverty are arguably the most disadvantaged, but even other minorities in poverty lose out to those of the same race that are more affluent and have more opportunities anyway.

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