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On being a girl in computer science - a confession

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Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#151

Post by burntsushi »

danilocampos wrote: post #108
cletus wrote: post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

> For me, I'm not sure how productive all this gender hand-wringing really is. Demographic dramatically over-represented in government, corporate boards, startup founders, growth industries, etc unconcerned about status quo. And there's the problem.

So the GP's argument is wrong because you assume the poster is part of a over-represented demographic?

If I've understood your implication correctly, then it's an ad hominem of the genetic fallacy variety.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#152

Post by LockeWatts »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #139
jimzvz wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that we cannot debate this issue unless we are female? Because, if so, then you need to copy and paste your comment on 90% of the comments in this thread including your own. (I assume you are not a women because you said " Can WE please let the women speak for themselves? ") Or are you suggesting that us males are only not allowed to debate when we believe that special treatment of women is actuall…

I am suggesting we not make self-serving assertions about how women should feel. There is debating and then there is putting words in other people's mouths that are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves. If women themselves are not making this type of argument, men have no place in making it on their behalf.

How about we argue instead that discriminating is wrong, and we shouldn't actively promote it.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#153

Post by jimzvz »

Anechoic wrote: post #143
jimzvz wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids are very perceptive, they notice the apparent differences in acceptable behavior very early on Yes and if young girls' early exposure to the industry consists largely of "Girl-centric CS activities" then they will immediately wonder why they need such special treatment. People do not want want to be segregated, even if it is, supposedly, for a good cause.

People do not want want to be segregated, even if it is, supposedly, for a good cause. Really? Because self-segregation is pretty obvious in any number of contexts.

Yes but there is a difference between forced segregation and self-segregation.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#155

Post by burntsushi »

[deleted] wrote: post #146
cletus wrote: post #102

I think these sorts of articles are asking the wrong question when they ask "why aren't there more women in CS?" or "how can we get more women in CS?" Instead the question should be (IMHO) "are there any barriers to entry for women in CS?" I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action. Some believe in a meritocracy that is blind to race, age and gender. They believe…

[deleted]

With regards to affirmative action, the GP said:

> I suspect the opinion people have on this issue largely mirrors their view on affirmative action.

Which merely suggests that one's view of affirmative action tends to predict one's view of these gender bias issues.

> The problem is that you a have bunch of horny teenage boys with underdeveloped social skills

And females just aren't cut out for hard technical work. /s

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#156

Post by anoncoward999 »

Female-only programming events and CS groups are like female-only gyms, they provide a more low-pressure environment to gain confidence and skills. It's a great place for a beginner to be turned on to a rewarding and fun activity/profession and receive mentorship from more experienced women. It's fairly natural for people that share similar characteristics and experiences to band together to form support groups.

The author is an atypical female, so she doesn't see the need for such groups. She would be a techie regardless. But I expect that the gender ratio in CS would be worse than it is if these groups did not exist.

Software is only growing in importance. I would guess that these groups do a good job at drawing highly talented people into the industry. That's important for the future of software. If these efforts at outreach are effective, then I am grateful for all the talented future coworkers that I gain from them.

As a member of the majority, it is easy to feel devalued by special events for every subgroup who is not like us. And when members of the majority speak up about it, their concerns are considered illegitimate and even evil. I think it would benefit everybody if we were all a little more open and less judgmental.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#157

Post by jimzvz »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #139
jimzvz wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that we cannot debate this issue unless we are female? Because, if so, then you need to copy and paste your comment on 90% of the comments in this thread including your own. (I assume you are not a women because you said " Can WE please let the women speak for themselves? ") Or are you suggesting that us males are only not allowed to debate when we believe that special treatment of women is actuall…

I am suggesting we not make self-serving assertions about how women should feel. There is debating and then there is putting words in other people's mouths that are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves. If women themselves are not making this type of argument, men have no place in making it on their behalf.

Please explain to me where I made an assertion about how women should feel. I said that girls will wonder why they are being treated differently and I said that people do not like being segregated. What words am I putting in whose mouths? What type of argument?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#158

Post by burntsushi »

davidroberts wrote: post #45

If you look at the real pioneers of computer science, people like Turing and Babbage, two women jump right off the page: Ada Byron and Grace Hopper. Women belong in CS, because it belongs to them. They were there at the start, just as much as the men. As a 55-year-old man, I'm pretty sure I've experienced discrimination because of my age. Situations where people couldn't see beyond the wrinkles and gray hair and see…

> I've worked in two departments headed by a woman who made all the hiring decisions and the entire team they hired was men.

Given the lack of women in the field, this isn't all that surprising and cannot be unilaterally blamed on gender biases.

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#159

Post by jimzvz »

jimzvz wrote: post #116
hackinthebochs wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're conflating issues here. There is a point where continually beating the drum about overt sexism in the field becomes counter productive. But this is a different issue. Having women-centric CS events arent necessarily about shielding women from male sexism, but about creating environments where they won't feel intimidated and can commiserate with others who are experiencing or have experienced the same i…

> The contexts for the two groups are completely different, thus a simple "swapping the two labels and seeing what results" gives absolutely no insight. This is an argument that has been used by most proponents of discriminatory practices.

Is this not true?

Re: On being a girl in computer science - a confession

#160

Post by newnewnew »

LockeWatts wrote: post #144
hackinthebochs wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Holding "women for CS" events only makes the women in CS feel even more isolated from their male peers I don't think this is true at all (and usually you never see women say this, just males rationalizing their position). Women centric CS events are to encourage those who have an interest but may have been hesitant for some reason to seek it out. Or to encourage those who are students to seek help and find comraderi…

>The difference is that girls have an immediate re-enforcing explanation for that sense of being out of place: you don't belong because you're a woman How is this different from guys who go, "They're so ahead of me. I'm out of place, because they are all smarter than me"?

Beginning guys who find themselves in classrooms full of people that started programming in their teens do what they always do - suck it up or fail. Such is the life of a member of the majority.
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