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Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

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Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#201
post #124
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really a plan, though? I mean the 'Eagle Plan' seems much more viable than the 'Fellowship Plan'. The fellowship was so bad it even included a couple humans who were pre-disposed to the rings affects and, as such, didn't last too long.

The 'Fellowship Plan' was designed by committee, parties with vested interests, etc., what other outcome could be expected?

Indeed. Gandalf was more interested in guaranteeing the supply of "pipe-weed," an addictive drug transported and sold throughout Middle Earth for great profit. Gandalf is smoking it constantly.

The whole ring story is just an imperialist narrative constructed to justify preemptive warfare on the "lesser" races of Mordor by the military-industrial complex in Gondor. Gandalf knows the ring is powerless; it's merely symbolic. After he becomes a Grand Wizard-- sorry, White Wizard, Gandalf feels ready to lead the war on the inferior races who speak the "black speech."

Chomsky already explained all this: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/unused-audio-commentary-b...

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#202
post #38

As the article points out, it's a question of stealth versus speed, but speed is not necessarily preferable. The powers of Sauron, especially deep within his own domain, are indeed unknown. With even an hour to react, it is quite possible he would be able to conjure up something that would end up in the whole endeavor delivering the ring to him, instead of destroying it. On the other hand, the stealthiness of hobbits…

I agree with this comment the plan has always been about stealth rather than speed or force. It's an ongoing theme in the book that Sauron is too powerful to assail directly. Sending a Hobbit on eagle back into Mordor seems to fall into the direct category despite how fast they may be and how easy it may be for them to initially get into Mordor.

It seems reasonable to assume that the hobbit plan is more stealth than the giant eagle flying into Mordor plan and point 12 Sauron is an evil Maia with a giant evil domain seems to be the reason why you wouldn't try anything directly especially when he is not distracted.

Also the eagles are not directly under the control of anyone except Manwe, no time in the Silmarillion or the other books does one just say "maybe we should take eagles instead of walking". So the reason they are not brought up as an option is because they simply do not have eagles under their command. Otherwise the same logic can be leveled against every difficult journey in the Silmarillion/hobbit/lotr, e.g. "why didn't they just take eagles".

I can see the conversation being a little bit more like this:

Gandalf: we could ask the eagles if they willing to help us out on this one, maybe Manwe is cool with it now.

Elrond: Sauron will likely see them coming at the least when they enter Mordor.

Gandalf: Maybe he has nothing to stop Eagle's, come on let's take a chance.

Sam: Come on worth a shot look at these flight plans I drew up, will save walking and we will be back in the shire before supper time.

Elrond: No damnit.

Eagle plan is pretty good but I don't see it as being too inconsistent with the world as the article does, e.g. why didn't Manwe just use eagles every time something hard happened in the entire history. The extent of powers of the Maia and Valar are never explained explicitly why should they be for Sauron.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#203
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'Fellowship Plan' was designed by committee, parties with vested interests, etc., what other outcome could be expected?

Indeed. Gandalf was more interested in guaranteeing the supply of "pipe-weed," an addictive drug transported and sold throughout Middle Earth for great profit. Gandalf is smoking it constantly. The whole ring story is just an imperialist narrative constructed to justify preemptive warfare on the "lesser" races of Mordor by the military-industrial complex in Gondor. Gandalf knows the ring is powerless; it's merely sym…

"How do you think these wizards build gigantic towers and mighty fortresses? Where do they get the money? Keep in mind that I do not especially regard anyone, Saruman included, as an agent for progressivism. But obviously the pipe-weed operation that exists is the dominant influence in Middle Earth. It’s not some ludicrous magical ring."

Brilliant.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#204
8. "The Valar would prohibit the eagles from such a direct intervention against Sauron."

I am surprised that this argument comes up as often as it does, because I am aware of no textual support for this idea. The eagles quite frequently involve themselves in the fight against Sauron (or against evil in general):

    They rescue Bilbo, Thorin, & Co. from the orcs and wolves.
    They participate in the Battle of Five Armies.
    They rescue Gandalf from Orthanc.
    They rescue Gandalf again from Zirak-Zigil.
    They directly attack the flying Nazgûl during the last battle.
    They fly into Mordor to rescue Frodo and Sam.
Given all this heavy involvement, it would be extremely surprising if the Valar specifically prohibited the eagles from flying the Ringbearer into Mordor. Tolkien nowhere mentions such a prohibition.

The only support I can see for this argument is very indirect: namely, that the eagles are said to be the representatives of Manwë, and in the Third Age, Manwë is maintaining a policy of the Valar not intervening directly in the affairs of Middle-Earth. But the eagles do often intervene in the struggles of Middle-Earth, and there's no indication that they were under some restriction in this case. If the eagles were prohibited from being involved directly in the struggle against Sauron, we might expect that they would have withdrawn to Valinor long ago rather than remain in Middle-Earth.

This is the actual reason, but there is more evidence to support it than the OP gives, but like most things Tolkien, you need to read outside the usual narrative to find it. The best explanation for this is how the rules of Manwe govern the wizards, particularly Gandalf:

Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt. Unfinished Tales, Ballantine paperback, p. 406.

The Valar are allowed to send the the wizards to Middle Earth with the consent of Eru, with constraints on what the wizards are allowed to do. This implies that Eru, the overarching God of Tolkien's universe, has a plan for events in Middle Earth, and that he doesn't want the higher powers (the Valar) to interfere directly.

The eagles are also servants of the Valar, and are not permitted to directly interfere with events. Discounting the events of The Hobbit, the eagles only show up to help when everyone has already made the right decision informed by faith and hope. When the eagle finds Gandalf on Zirak-Zigil, he had just sacrificed himself to defeat the balrog and he had been returned to Middle Earth (clear Deus ex Machina there too). When they attack the Nazgul in the last battle, it was after Aragorn and the other leaders had committed their armies to a "hopeless" last stand. When they flew into Mordor to rescue Frodo and Sam, it was after they had finished the quest.

There are multiple times where the intervention of Eru in the events of Middle Earth are implied. Gandalf hints that Bilbo was meant to find the ring. Gollum steals the ring and falls into the fire. A wind out of the West blows away the smoke cloud that appears when Barad-Dur crumbles (and the smaller smoke cloud that appears when Saruman is killed). So the prohibition against direct Valar action in Middle Earth is no small thing.

Would it have been nice if the eagles were discussed more in the book? Probably, but it was pretty long already.

If you are interested in this sort of stuff, I recommend listening to the Tolkien Professor podcast.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#205
post #149

This is always the idea that people bring up but it's pretty obvious it wouldn't work. Frodo and Sam and Gollum are able to sneak in on the ground. If they were flying in on an Eagle it would be obvious and easily spotted and instead of sneaking into Mt Doom you'd be having a battle on the steps of Mt Doom with only the eagles + whomever they could carry vs. all the forces of Mordor. Anyone who brings this up as a se…

Did you even read the article?

I did and it was terrible.

He brings up the idea that they'd be spotted and doesn't have a good response to it, he's basically just dismissive of it. "Oh well Sauron wouldn't be able to react in time." Ridiculous.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#206
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat curiously, the "deus ex machina," usually referred to as cheap trick in contemporary commentary on literature/theatre/film, was an expected and appropriate resolution in classical theatre. One might find in Fortinbras Shakespeare's own descending god, although he presides over a funeral rather than a positive resolution (the preferred outcome of virtually all American theatre).

Actually Aristotle criticized using the "machina" (one of several instruments used in Greek theater) to resolve a plot difficulty: http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/poetics.2.2.html (search for "deus ex") I think Aristophanes also made fun of it, but I can't find that reference now.

As long as I'm getting upvotes for Classics stuff on Hacker News...:

The Greek name for "machina" is μηχανή. It was used for more than just solving knots in a plot. In a way it was one of the earliest "special effects."

I'm not sure what Clouds reference prospero means, but when Socrates first appears, up in a basket examining the heavens, he is probably on a μηχανή. I suspect this is a deliberate allusion to sophists acting like gods. (I think it's rare to find anyone but gods on a μηχανή.)

Wikipedia thinks that in Aristophanes' Thesmophoriazousae (aka Thesmo), Euripides enters a scene on a μηχανή in comic allusion to his frequently resorting to it to solve plot problems [1]. I'm not sure what scene that is, but I'd encourage anyone to read this little-read play, in which Aristophanes stages Euripides trying to infiltrate a conclave of women upset that his plays show women in a bad light (e.g. Medea). During the play Euripides has to keep acting out scenes from his own plays. If you like Euripides, it's a pretty great read.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#207

I have for many years speculated that Gandalf's plan could have been to get everyone to Gondor and allow Sauron to besiege the combined forces of "the west" and then fly the ring to mount doom at the last moment. If this had been Gandalf's plan from the start, and if there were some hint of this in the book, then the rescue from mount doom would not seem like such an egregious plot device. As it is, the story makes n…

"Fly, you fools!"

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the pro- and anti-eagle arguments make assumptions. The pro-eagle argument is built on assumptions about the limits of power. We know that Sauron is unequaled in power among the Maia. We know that Sauron built mountain ranges. We know that Saruman easily overcame Gandalf. We know that Gandalf has powers that allowed him to overcome a Balrog. Tolkien has made the artistic choice to shield our eyes from overt magi…

>Assuming the non-existence of great magical power in the hands of Sauron is just foolishness. then he should of knew of their plan too. Is it really secret if there is no limit to his power.

Straw man.

As I said, it boils down to guesses about the limits of Sauron's power. Reasonable people can disagree about the best guess. Unreasonable people pretend their guesses are not guesses.

That it is, to some degree, possible to evade Sauron's efforts by means of secrecy was a proven fact, or the Ringbearer would not have been alive to attend Council of Elrond at all.

The guess that someone who can create mountain ranges cannot swat an eagle floating by in plain sight, right in front of his seat of power, is not an obviously correct one.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy objection, Gwaihir could simply not go.

We know nothing of the culture of the giant eagles. It might be dishonorable as their leader for him not to.

I think it would be far more dishonorable to put himself in a position to be seduced by the Ring.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Assuming the non-existence of great magical power in the hands of Sauron is just foolishness. then he should of knew of their plan too. Is it really secret if there is no limit to his power.

Straw man. As I said, it boils down to guesses about the limits of Sauron's power. Reasonable people can disagree about the best guess. Unreasonable people pretend their guesses are not guesses. That it is, to some degree, possible to evade Sauron's efforts by means of secrecy was a proven fact, or the Ringbearer would not have been alive to attend Council of Elrond at all. The guess that someone who can create mount…

Again go back and read the article as the author give many plausible reasonings as to why Sauron wouldn't detect the eagles.
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