I still ask myself why Elrond didn't just push to the lava the human king when he refused to drop the ring. Knowing the pain, the evil of the matter, letting him go freely with the ring just made this story a bit silly.
Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
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Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#52Tolkien used the eagles as his standard deus ex machina.
- Dwarves + Bilbo + Gandalf stuck in burning trees with enemies around? The eagles to the rescue!
- How to wrap up the Battle of the 5 armies when all is lost? The eagles are coming!
- How to rescue Gandalf from Sauruman! The eagles!
- How to rescue Gandalf from the top of a mountain after an epic battle with a balrog? The eagles!
- How to rescue Frodo and Sam from a volcano blowing up? You guessed it! The eagles!
If you read The Silmarillion and other related works, eagles show up several more times in deus ex machinas in the Gondolin stories.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_(Middle-earth) for more on eagles in his stories, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eagle_and_Child for a possible explanation of Tolkien's fondness for eagles.
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#53Flying mounts are a plot failure almost every time they are brought up in fantastic stories. Most fantastic stories revolve around a perilous journey through harsh environments and monster lairs.
This happens in a good number of movies such as Clash of the Titans where they journey to get the medusa's head, but return on flying pegasus. This also happens in Dungeons & Dragons (2000).
Morale : Do not add flying mounts to your scenario, or have your characters fly all the time, otherwise it makes no sense
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#54> Even if Sauron can cause Mt. Doom to erupt immediately, we know from the actual story that the eagles are capable of navigating into Mordor and locating and rescuing Frodo and Sam, despite the major eruption which was taking place. Even if Sauron did manage to catch the eagles in the eruption, however, could this melt the Ring? If Sauron does manage to figure out that the eagles are carrying the Ringbearer, he might opt not to cause Mt. Doom to erupt, just for this very reason.
This suggests a far better option: Sauron could have cooled down mount doom, and then when the eagles arrived there would be nothing they could do to destroy the ring. Meanwhile a massive army from all over Mordor would be building up around them, and the Nazgul would be on their way to capture the ring before they could get out of Mordor. Of course this does not counter the argument that the option was not even discussed.
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#55The Eagles are not bound by earthlings. That is something that the dialogues between Gandalf and Thorondor sets clear.
It is akin to Tom Bombadil's unwillingness to keep the ring and/or defend Middle Earth: in some sense, it is not their problem (as in NMP).
So: they could have done the job but they probably would not have gone to the meetings or accept it because they are above that issue.
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#56Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#57I wonder how much of the thematic blindspot had to do with the technology of the day? The books were reportedly started on soon after The Hobbit (1939ish), before flight was the dominant theater for war. Even though the books were not published until after WW2, when aerial warfare became the new front of war, it seems that Tolkien's main experience in war was the hideous ground fighting in WWI, and he himself rebuffe…
Air power played a prominent role in WW1, with aerial duels frequently making headlines and German airplanes bombing London [1]. Furthermore, in the inter-war period British society was obsessed with the seemingly unstoppable power of flight [2], a concern well substantiated by the Spanish Civil War [3]. Tolkien would have been keenly aware of all this by 1939. [1] http://www.firstworldwar.com/airwar/bombers_gotha_gi…
An older brother of mine did a master's thesis on Tolkien. One thing he studied in particular is the role that Tolkien's wartime experiences had on his portrayal in the Lord of the Rings.
On air power, he explained to me that in WW I airplanes had a great psychological impact, but little practical ones. You see this very clearly in the portrayal of the Nazgul in battle. Where ever you see the Nazgul go, there is great fear and despair. However the flying Nazgul don't actually kill many people or do much damage.
It is also worth noting that in WW I airplanes could only be used during the day, because at night the pilots got disoriented and would hit the ground.
Edit I was wrong about airplanes only being used during the day. They were used at night, albeit with major practical difficulties.
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#58As the article points out, it's a question of stealth versus speed, but speed is not necessarily preferable. The powers of Sauron, especially deep within his own domain, are indeed unknown. With even an hour to react, it is quite possible he would be able to conjure up something that would end up in the whole endeavor delivering the ring to him, instead of destroying it. On the other hand, the stealthiness of hobbits…
Is there really a plan, though? I mean the 'Eagle Plan' seems much more viable than the 'Fellowship Plan'. The fellowship was so bad it even included a couple humans who were pre-disposed to the rings affects and, as such, didn't last too long.
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#59Tolkien used the eagles as his standard deus ex machina. - Dwarves + Bilbo + Gandalf stuck in burning trees with enemies around? The eagles to the rescue! - How to wrap up the Battle of the 5 armies when all is lost? The eagles are coming! - How to rescue Gandalf from Sauruman! The eagles! - How to rescue Gandalf from the top of a mountain after an epic battle with a balrog? The eagles! - How to rescue Frodo and Sam…
Somewhat curiously, the "deus ex machina," usually referred to as cheap trick in contemporary commentary on literature/theatre/film, was an expected and appropriate resolution in classical theatre. One might find in Fortinbras Shakespeare's own descending god, although he presides over a funeral rather than a positive resolution (the preferred outcome of virtually all American theatre).
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#60Tolkien used the eagles as his standard deus ex machina. - Dwarves + Bilbo + Gandalf stuck in burning trees with enemies around? The eagles to the rescue! - How to wrap up the Battle of the 5 armies when all is lost? The eagles are coming! - How to rescue Gandalf from Sauruman! The eagles! - How to rescue Gandalf from the top of a mountain after an epic battle with a balrog? The eagles! - How to rescue Frodo and Sam…
From Unfinished Tales-The Istari:
"Eagles are Manwe’s birds, and they play a much more interventioinst role in the earlier ages because the Valar played a more interevtionist role in earlier ages of ME. The Eagles thus effectively withdraw in the Third Age other than for the intervention at Orthanc and at Mount Doom, as the Valar themselves no longer directly intervene-using instead the Istari, who themselves have strict limtations placed on their powers"