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Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

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Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#181

Post by saraid216 »

gambiting wrote: post #150
fr0sty wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One nit-pick: The Peter Jackson film shows Saruman stabbed by Wormtongue before falling to his death from the top of Orthanc. Furthermore, I believe it is only included in the extended edition of The Two Towers (but I could be wrong on that point).

Yes, sorry, Legolas shot Wormtongue instead. Still wrong though. And yes, it's only included in the extended edition. And that vision Sam sees in Galardiela's mirror is actually true - in the book, Shire WAS burning in the end, because Saruman almost destroyed it.

I might be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that Legolas did not return to the Shire with the hobbits. According to Wikipedia, he was shot by "Hobbit archers" from the impromptu militia the four adventurers organized.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#182

Post by comrade_ogilvy »

andrewguenther wrote: post #132
xymostech wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the whole article? "After Frodo and Sam entered Mordor thru Cirith Ungol, Sauron had fully ten days to contemplate the purpose of their mission into Mordor, and did not realize that their plan was to destroy the Ring until the last moment. Given that the Mouth of Sauron refers to the intruders as "spies", Sauron's most likely thought would be that the eagles are merely flying over his realm for reconnais…

I never really understood this in the books. How could Sauron not know that their intent was to destroy the ring? It is made clear that Sauron can see Frodo's location when he puts on the ring. Frodo puts on the ring at various points throughout the series, each time increasingly close to Mordor. How could Sauron have not considered this to be their intent?

We understand early on that employing the Ring is too hazardous to contemplate, and will simply lead to a different kind of doom, at best.

Sauron is worried that Saruman or Gandalf or Galadriel or Elrond or Aragorn could successfully command the full powers of the Ring, gather together the might of Men, and beat him down to nothingness, so that he must suffer another 3000 years of powerlessness before trying again.

Sauron may suspect that another could not do as much. But how could he know with certainty? He only has fifth hand reports of Isildur's tenure as the bearer of the Ring. The Ring was intended as a powerful tool for Sauron himself -- its nature in the hands of others may be as much a mystery to Sauron as anyone else.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#183

Post by mcguire »

praptak wrote: post #139
btilly wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is a good thematic reason to not use eagles to resolve the challenge of Sauron!

This counterpoint has a counter-counterpoint in the article.

Yes, the "theme be damned, it should be written the way I want" point. Or, the "why I do not read modern fantasy" point.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#184

Post by GhotiFish » 

    12. "Sauron is a powerful Maia, and it's reasonable to
    assume that he has powers which we aren't told about
    which he could use against the eagles."
To me, things like this discount the use of the term "plot hole". It is unreasonable of us to expect that every single exception or problem must be codified and discounted by the author the moment any plot device is brought up. Yes some discussion is worthy. All things in moderation as they say, but the less the better.

In my opinion, there is no plot hole if there is no contradiction in terms the story has presented.

If it is possible for the author to come back and add in a line about why "such and such" wouldn't work, without introducing a contradiction somewhere else in the story, then it is not a plot hole.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#185

Post by comrade_ogilvy »

angryasian wrote: post #109
zeteo wrote: post #38

As the article points out, it's a question of stealth versus speed, but speed is not necessarily preferable. The powers of Sauron, especially deep within his own domain, are indeed unknown. With even an hour to react, it is quite possible he would be able to conjure up something that would end up in the whole endeavor delivering the ring to him, instead of destroying it. On the other hand, the stealthiness of hobbits…

> it is quite possible he would be able to conjure up something that would end up in the whole endeavor delivering the ring to him, instead of destroying it. This is the exact argument the article is arguing against. You can only make assumptions based on what is known in the story. The author makes many valid arguments on why Sauron more than likely would not see it coming if it were to happen this way. >quite possi…

Both the pro- and anti-eagle arguments make assumptions. The pro-eagle argument is built on assumptions about the limits of power.

We know that Sauron is unequaled in power among the Maia. We know that Sauron built mountain ranges. We know that Saruman easily overcame Gandalf. We know that Gandalf has powers that allowed him to overcome a Balrog.

Tolkien has made the artistic choice to shield our eyes from overt magical power. It is the nature Middle Earth that great magical power is a very real thing. The lack of clear evidence of the exact limits of magic is because Tolkien really did not want to discuss it, and that is not a good argument for simplistic assumptions.

Assuming the non-existence of great magical power in the hands of Sauron is just foolishness. It boils down to whether a guess about the limits of Sauron's power is more believeable than a guess about the potential extent.

I would further note that the Council of Elrond may have no firm knowledge either. In the end, they guess that secrecy is the best hope.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#186

Post by comrade_ogilvy »

orourkek wrote: post #67
zeteo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would venture that there were many possible alternate decisions at various points in the plot, and discussing all of them thoroughly was not necessarily a literary enhancement. The "eagles plan" itself is fan fiction, and refusing to accept more "fan fiction" in response to it is a bit disingenuous.

It's more of a plot hole than fan-fiction. The article is an exhaustive look at provable (written) arguments that can refute the eagles as a possibile solution to the Mordor trip. The author is trying to prove that the plot hole is, in fact, a plot hole by nature of it being plausible. Using other possibilities to refute a possibility goes against the spirit of the article, where the author looks for concrete facts t…

I do not agree that it is a plot hole, unless every possibly important unanswered question qualifies as a plot hole.

I agree that the use of eagles is an unanswered question, that might, to some, seem somewhat surprising that it was never mentioned.

My answer is that Tolkien made the artistic choice to speak of the powers of both Sauron and the Ring in poetic terms only. The last thing he wanted to do is delve into details about Sauron's Anti-craft Aircraft potential when shooting at eagles from throne of Barad-dur, even in a passing comment. He worked very hard to shield our eyes from such details.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#187

Post by stevekemp »

dageshi wrote: post #50

Crows. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Crebain If crows can be sent into the world to hunt for the ringbearer they can certainly patrol the skies around Mordor. Crows spy the eagles entering Mordor and forces are dispatched to counter them.

Balrogs have wings too, right?

;)

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#188

Post by snowwrestler »

jff wrote: post #177
snowwrestler wrote: post #168

There are a ton of plot holes in the LOTR. Why did Aragorn run off in the dark at Weathertop, when everyone knew they would be besieged? Why does the ring not affect Tom Bombadil? Why does everyone put up with Wormtongue in Rohan? Why don't the orcs in Mordor immediately recognize Frodo and Sam as non-orcs? Why does it matter that Eowyn is a woman not a man? How convenient is it that Boromir showed up just in time fo…

Some of these things are there because they exist in the kind of stories that inspired Tolkien in the first place. Characters appear at just the right time by chance or fate, "can't be killed by man" is taken literally, a simple disguise fools everyone. This isn't set in our world. It's closer to the world of Beowulf, the Eddas, or the Grimm brothers.

Thanks, that is a better way of putting it than what I wrote. It's a mythic tale of a quest, so asking why the Eagles didn't shortcut the quest is kind of missing the point.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#189

Post by guard-of-terra »

joshuahedlund wrote: post #123
jackalope wrote: post #90

One merely has to refer to RFC 1149[1] to determine why this solution is obviously unacceptable: "Avian carriers can provide high delay, low throughput, and low altitude service." "...only guarantees best effort delivery, loss of a carrier can be tolerated." "...storms can cause data loss." "Audit trails are automatically generated, and can often be found on logs and cable trays." And probably most important: "Securi…

To be fair, it's not like the ground method had much room for second chances, either.

That's because they separated. It didn't go as planned. If they would enter Mordor as a group they had better chance perhaps?

I think Mordor had some kind of anti-air defense (watch towers + crossbowmen)? Because if they didn't, it would be a persistent and major attack surface. And 40% of failure wasn't tolerable.

And after they separated, Frodo had no ways to summon eagles.

Moreover, maybe in the middle earth they see such occasions as a battle of strong wills, not firepower. A few heroes outwill a regular strike force. That's all what matters.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#190

Post by apurcell »

ebbv wrote: post #149

This is always the idea that people bring up but it's pretty obvious it wouldn't work. Frodo and Sam and Gollum are able to sneak in on the ground. If they were flying in on an Eagle it would be obvious and easily spotted and instead of sneaking into Mt Doom you'd be having a battle on the steps of Mt Doom with only the eagles + whomever they could carry vs. all the forces of Mordor. Anyone who brings this up as a se…

Did you even read the article?
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