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Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

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Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#131

Post by pm90 »

ImprovedSilence wrote: post #77
chimpinee wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And surely Frodo's failure implies also that the eagle plan could not have worked: it did not include Gollum

Right, but this was never discussed in the book, so as to remove the eagle plot hole. But one could see it that way. Perhaps galdolf never brought it up, because he only had a gut feeling gollum would have a role to play, and that frodo wouldn't be able to rid himself of the ring anyway...?

I don't think galdolf could predict the exact role Gollum would play. It was just a hunch on his part (or at least the book makes it look like it is)

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#132

Post by andrewguenther »

xymostech wrote: post #83
dageshi wrote: post #50

Crows. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Crebain If crows can be sent into the world to hunt for the ringbearer they can certainly patrol the skies around Mordor. Crows spy the eagles entering Mordor and forces are dispatched to counter them.

Did you read the whole article? "After Frodo and Sam entered Mordor thru Cirith Ungol, Sauron had fully ten days to contemplate the purpose of their mission into Mordor, and did not realize that their plan was to destroy the Ring until the last moment. Given that the Mouth of Sauron refers to the intruders as "spies", Sauron's most likely thought would be that the eagles are merely flying over his realm for reconnais…

I never really understood this in the books. How could Sauron not know that their intent was to destroy the ring? It is made clear that Sauron can see Frodo's location when he puts on the ring. Frodo puts on the ring at various points throughout the series, each time increasingly close to Mordor. How could Sauron have not considered this to be their intent?

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#133

Post by vacri »

zeteo wrote: post #38

As the article points out, it's a question of stealth versus speed, but speed is not necessarily preferable. The powers of Sauron, especially deep within his own domain, are indeed unknown. With even an hour to react, it is quite possible he would be able to conjure up something that would end up in the whole endeavor delivering the ring to him, instead of destroying it. On the other hand, the stealthiness of hobbits…

Sauron also had flying troops of his own, so it would be a risky proposition to present for a battle that way.

Similarly, the use of magic is very unclear in Tolkien, but who's to say Sauron can't do something against a flying target himself if it makes a beeline for Mt Doom?

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#134

Post by andrewguenther »

jimzvz wrote: post #94

Perhaps Gandalf feared the power the ring would have over the eagles. Not during the trip, as discussed in the article, but at the moment when it needs to be destroyed. If the eagle changed its mind at that point, there would be nothing they could do about it. He did not even trust himself with the ring. The ring corrupting a powerful being would be far more devastating than the corruption of a hobbit or man so perha…

It seems that the more powerful the being, the more likely the ring is to corrupt them. I think that the worry would not be that the ring would corrupt the eagles, but their masters, the Valar.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#135

Post by pradocchia »

The eagles rescued Frodo and Sam from Mordor after Sauron and the ring were destroyed. Thus, we may infer that up until then, the eagles could not have entered Mordor, and/or they could not have carried the ring-bearer there. Precisely why does not matter. When the ring is destroyed, the world changes, and so its constraints also change.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#136

Post by shmerl »

kqr2 wrote: post #126
shmerl wrote: post #98

I think the answer is rather straightforward and is hinted in other encounters - eagles are getting involved as a last resort, to maintain the balance of good and evil. They are seen as the open messengers of the divine power, and aren't getting involved when the balance can be maintained by other means. So since there was a way to bring the ring to Mordor (even though an extremely hard one), eagles didn't interfere.…

Interesting theory, however, is there any example where the eagles come to the last minute rescue of Sauron's forces in order to maintain the balance of power?

Eagles are seen only as messengers of good. In general that would be a question only from the perspective of dualism, but I don't think this is the case with the Tolkien's view on his world. The world appears predominantly evil, but in essence Tolkien maintains the view of the ultimate good (i.e. hidden), as an intention of Eru. So tipping the balance into the good side usually doesn't disrupt it as much. However extreme shifts still can have serious consequences. Valars getting involved in banishing Morgoth destroyed Beleriand altogether. The fall of Sauron diminished the Elven presence and so on.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#137

Post by nilkn »

Scriptor wrote: post #28
dmauro wrote: post #24

If the eagles had flown Frodo to Mordor to destroy the ring, it would NOT have been destroyed as Gollum would not be there to bring a serendipitous end to the events. It seems reasonable to imagine that Gandalf suspected more about Gollum's ultimate role than he let on, or had some idea or hunch even that things needed to play out more organically.

By the time he had walked to Mt. Doom, Frodo was exhausted, weak, malnourished, and had carried the burden of the ring for a long time. These all contributed to him succumbing to its power. If the eagles had flown him, none of those factors would be at play. Frodo could have still had the strength to overcome the ring's power and throw it into the fires.

I'm pretty sure it's explicitly written somewhere that nobody in Middle-earth had the willpower to destroy the ring. So, basically, Frodo couldn't have done it whether he walked or flew into Mordor.

My understanding has always been that Gandalf alone understood this and necessarily was hushed about it or otherwise it would have totally destroyed morale. He let others believe it was possible to willfully destroy the ring when in fact it was not.

Gandalf was said to be the wisest of all of the Maiar. So if he had a feeling that Gollum would have a role to play, it was probably worthwhile allowing Gollum to play that role. I have no doubt that Gandalf knew that Frodo would falter at the end.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#138

Post by stcredzero »

> Not mentioned is my favorite objection, which is that Gwaihir, the Lord of the Eagles, is ... a being of great power, and as such should not be trusted carrying the One Ring, even indirectly. The corrupting strength of the Ring is clearly stronger as one approaches Mordor--Sam and Frodo both understand that wearing the Ring within Mordor would be catastrophic. In Tolkien's universe, power calls to power, and there is every reason to believe that the Lord of the Eagles would fall completely under the spell of the Ring as he approached Mt. Doom.

Works for me. Humanoids riding on the backs of the eagles would be entirely at their mercy. If Gwaihir were tempted, he could seal the doom of the ringbearer in an instant and claim the ring for himself. The only being capable of destroying the one ring would be a humble creature. As it turns out, even Frodo wasn't humble enough, and the simplicity and purity of an insane idiot was required to get the job done, and by sheer accident at that.

EDIT: Also, the reason why Samwise could carry Frodo, is because there's a very strong bond between the two, and because Sam is even humbler than Frodo. The effect of the ring seems to be inversely proportional to the military/mystical power of the being carrying it.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#139

Post by praptak »

btilly wrote: post #65
calhoun137 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Unfinished Tales-The Istari: "Eagles are Manwe’s birds, and they play a much more interventioinst role in the earlier ages because the Valar played a more interevtionist role in earlier ages of ME. The Eagles thus effectively withdraw in the Third Age other than for the intervention at Orthanc and at Mount Doom, as the Valar themselves no longer directly intervene-using instead the Istari, who themselves have st…

And that is a good thematic reason to not use eagles to resolve the challenge of Sauron!

This counterpoint has a counter-counterpoint in the article.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#140

Post by praptak »

andrewguenther wrote: post #132
xymostech wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the whole article? "After Frodo and Sam entered Mordor thru Cirith Ungol, Sauron had fully ten days to contemplate the purpose of their mission into Mordor, and did not realize that their plan was to destroy the Ring until the last moment. Given that the Mouth of Sauron refers to the intruders as "spies", Sauron's most likely thought would be that the eagles are merely flying over his realm for reconnais…

I never really understood this in the books. How could Sauron not know that their intent was to destroy the ring? It is made clear that Sauron can see Frodo's location when he puts on the ring. Frodo puts on the ring at various points throughout the series, each time increasingly close to Mordor. How could Sauron have not considered this to be their intent?

Sauron expected the power of the ring to be used against himself in the final battle.
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