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Introducing Passion Projects

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Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#51

Post by jQueryIsAwesome »

jessedhillon wrote: post #41
jQueryIsAwesome wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see, women are going to share their traumatic experience in tech. BTW, this discussion is just silly because there are millions of meet Ups in tech filled with only men, but in the other hand meet ups of rape survivors not accepting men would be just evil, men are a minority in that group, it would be like a tech company not accepting any women.

Ok. Good luck trying to convince them to let you in, I'm sure your unassailable logic misses nothing obvious. Make sure you let them know that it's evil for you not to be allowed in.

What? Fortunately I wasn't talking about me, just men victims of rape. And doesn't matter if they follow my logic or not, we are discussing what's right, not the logic of the organizers of such meetings.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#52

Post by holman »

oliverhunt wrote: post #48
holman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "passion project", in my mind, is simply a project that you're excited about (notably one that is likely outside the bounds of your normal, day-to-day job). I distinguish them from "side projects", which tend to be something you're interested in, but not something you're necessarily defined by. That's the reason the program's called passion projects — hopefully we'll have a ton of talks on really interesting things…

Most definitely. We share the same meaning of the concept of a passion project. I was probably just over thinking it, I am just suspicious of the way such highly emotive language has been used and it just happens to be for an interview series with women. I'll admit I had not read the link before I posted that comment, but looking at it now I still believe that the language used is overly emotional and I think that it…

> "celebrate the work of some of the most passionate women in our industry."

> "share one of their nearest and dearest passion projects with our community."

> "to hear about some positive experiences from other women in our industry doing what they love."

Yup, I'm pretty excited about all of these things. Don't know why this is a problem.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#53

Post by Zikes »

mlent wrote: post #39
Zikes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must vehemently disagree with your argument that discrimination against men on the basis of gender is not sexism, and I take offense at the notion that it is "nonsense", however that is only a pedantic tangent in the context of this discussion. To avoid further pedantry, going forward I will simply refer to it as discrimination. Whatever your definition of that word, discrimination of any sort is morally and ethica…

Why is it necessarily hostile towards men to have a series of talks oriented towards women in tech? I don't imagine they're going to spend their time talking about how terrible men are, how we should undermine them at every turn, and do our best to tip the scales of systemic oppression in their favor. It seems to me to be about inspiration and encouragement, which can be a benefit to anyone, regardless of gender. It…

You misunderstand my point. I happily support talks that feature and target women in tech, as I believe I have stated several times, I only worry about such initiatives excluding men from the audience or other means of participation. To achieve integration and inclusion, everyone must get involved to show their support and to learn about the issues at hand.

As to the definition of sexism, I would implore you to closely read any available dictionary entry of the word. The core definition is "discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex". It is unfortunate that this definition, in some dictionaries, will also include such lines as "typically against women", but that does not negate the possibility that sexism against men may occur. I would hardly refute that in a large number of cases sexism targets women, but by no means are men free from its effects.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#54

Post by thejosh »

msoad wrote: post #23

So I started programming (for real) about two years ago. I spent about four months teaching myself coding PHP, JavaScript and CSS. I was able to secure a job after four months. I wasn't really good enough for the position. My wife is doing the same. She is following my path. She have me, I teach her and she is learning much faster. After a year, she is still looking for a volunteer job! Nobody believes she can do any…

>We are immigrants and we are not white, I believe those adds to our problems.

Usually, sadly, this is because initially you don't have a formal education (university or otherwise)...

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#55

Post by oliverhunt »

holman wrote: post #52
oliverhunt wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most definitely. We share the same meaning of the concept of a passion project. I was probably just over thinking it, I am just suspicious of the way such highly emotive language has been used and it just happens to be for an interview series with women. I'll admit I had not read the link before I posted that comment, but looking at it now I still believe that the language used is overly emotional and I think that it…

> "celebrate the work of some of the most passionate women in our industry." > "share one of their nearest and dearest passion projects with our community." > "to hear about some positive experiences from other women in our industry doing what they love." Yup, I'm pretty excited about all of these things. Don't know why this is a problem.

There is obviously no problem with hearing about these things. I am focussing on the language used which could be seen to feminise the people taking part in the series when in fact we know nothing about them other than they are women and that they are in tech. I doubt you could find any other tech series which uses language as seen in the link.

Really, I am focussing on the mundane ways in which "women = feminine = emotional" has been portrayed in the few words that were written on the new series.

If you are interested in the way gender is reproduced in this way I recommend this reading http://www.mariabuszek.com/kcai/PoMoSeminar/Readings/BtlrPer...

It is a text by Judith Butler, probably one of the most influential living social theorists who writes on gender and focuses on 'the mundane', meaning language, acts etc

Anyway, I am excited to watch these. So, if you were involved - thanks.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#56

Post by arcwhite »

To those saying that "this is discrimination is it is morally wrong" (and I don't think this event constitutes discrimination, but here goes):

1. Should we then do away with gender segregated sports teams? 2. Should other minorities (e.g. LBGTQ groups) no longer have support groups that focus on issues relevant to them?

Having groups that cater to certain minorities feels to me both necessary and useful. We are not all identical. You probably don't want to live in a world without exceptional and different people in it; it would be boring.

That means there are times when some of those people who are like-minded want to get together and support each other. In some cases, that means other groups need to be discouraged (because that minority would otherwise be overwhelmed, drowned out in a sea of majority voices).

Why are so many voices in our industry constantly fighting events like this?

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#57

Post by freework »

thejosh wrote: post #54
msoad wrote: post #23

So I started programming (for real) about two years ago. I spent about four months teaching myself coding PHP, JavaScript and CSS. I was able to secure a job after four months. I wasn't really good enough for the position. My wife is doing the same. She is following my path. She have me, I teach her and she is learning much faster. After a year, she is still looking for a volunteer job! Nobody believes she can do any…

>We are immigrants and we are not white, I believe those adds to our problems. Usually, sadly, this is because initially you don't have a formal education (university or otherwise)...

Self taught programmers are more discriminated against these days than women, in my opinion. A lot of companies _say_ they don't care if you don't have a degree, but my experience is that the programmer with a degree from Stanford but a blank github account will get the job over a self-taught developer with dozens of shipped projects under their belt.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#58

Post by mlent »

Zikes wrote: post #53
mlent wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it necessarily hostile towards men to have a series of talks oriented towards women in tech? I don't imagine they're going to spend their time talking about how terrible men are, how we should undermine them at every turn, and do our best to tip the scales of systemic oppression in their favor. It seems to me to be about inspiration and encouragement, which can be a benefit to anyone, regardless of gender. It…

You misunderstand my point. I happily support talks that feature and target women in tech, as I believe I have stated several times, I only worry about such initiatives excluding men from the audience or other means of participation. To achieve integration and inclusion, everyone must get involved to show their support and to learn about the issues at hand. As to the definition of sexism, I would implore you to close…

My perspective is this: people write the dictionary just like people write any other book. It's not the end-all-be-all of any word. There are probably many sources on sexism that agree with me, and many that do not. It goes without saying, such is the nature of a controversial subject. I am not trying to be sarcastic here: Have you read any books on sexism or feminism? Because realistically, I think it's hard to grok those subjects with only a dictionary entry at your disposal.

I agree that sexism affects men negatively, as well. While men benefit the most from patriarchy, they also suffer. In order to reap its benefits, they have to play into the system. Most guys don't want to do that, and are appalled by people who do. But a future in which men and women overcome sexism is quite uncertain, and it is far easier to passively support male domination rather than to fight it. So yes, while I agree that men are negatively affected by sexism, I would disagree that men are negatively affected by sexism in the way that women are.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#59

Post by mlent »

sp332 wrote: post #36
mlent wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key element is that women are not able to systematically oppress men for being men, as they do not have the social privilege to do so. You need all the elements in order to produce sexism.

A single individual event or person can be sexist. I understand the idea you are describing. That idea is not what the word "sexism" refers to. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sexism

Sexism is an institution, so to speak. A single individual could not "bring sexism into existence". Women do not have enough power, as it stands, to impose a systemic oppression of men. Perhaps in the future, or in some female dominated societies, sexism against men exists...but not in the United States.

Re: Introducing Passion Projects

#60

Post by mlent »

jfim wrote: post #26
mlent wrote: post #15

I disagree with everyone saying, "Why create something separate for women? Isn't that further separation?" For the most part, women don't take up much space in the tech industry. Women look at the big names in tech, and they don't really see people who are "like me." This can be intimidating and disheartening. Creating more spaces for women to connect with other women, and share their experiences and encouragement is…

> Also, there's no reason why any women's group should have to admit men to appease the "I promise we're not sexist against men" line of reasoning. I doubt it would go very well if someone hosted a men-only event and said "I promise we're not sexist against women." I don't think anyone is against having women-focused groups any more than having other interest-based groups. Women exclusive groups, though, do send a ve…

The thing is, when women's groups are formed, they aren't to "keep men out". The point is that women aren't even thinking about men, they are thinking about other women. So no, I don't think it sends that message.

All this line of thinking does is shift attention towards men, thus reinforcing a male-centered culture.

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