Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000) • Hacker News Board

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#101

Post by javajosh » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 6:32 PM UTC

Clearly the answer is #11, and there are two ways to see this. First (and most evocatively, I think) is the drug metaphor: the effects of the Ring are cumulative, and they also grow stronger in proximity to Orodruin. We can model the Ring as an involuntary opioid dispenser that is certainly harming Frodo's body cumutively. But, even more sinisterly, it's dosage is increasing in proximity to Mt. Doom. Clearly, if Frodo approaches Orodruin with high velocity, his "dose" of the Ring's power will become very, very high, and he will OD.

The second way to see this is a physics metaphor. In this case we model the Ring's action as a spring pushing away from Orodruin. Frodo uses his will to compress the spring. Each step he takes requires work. Frodo can only expend energy at a more-or-less fixed rate[1] (which is nicely called will power, and captures the same notion of work-over-time), so, as expected, his progress toward Mt. Doom slows considerably as the opposing force increases. (I would add that consuming nothing but lembas made the final leg of the trip even possible).

So, an eagle ride would have either a) resulted in Frodo overdose, or b) forced Frodo's mind to exceed it's capacity for work, snapping it and either killing him or letting the Ring take over.

[1] http://psyserv06.psy.sbg.ac.at:5916/fetch/PDF/10978569.pdf

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#102

Post by caycep » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 6:34 PM UTC

could they anesthetize the ringbearer, fly him over in one of those super secret nighthawk choppers, and give him the ol heave ho into the chasm?

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#103

Post by ctdonath » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 6:36 PM UTC

pilsetnieks wrote: post #92

ctdonath wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, consider the origin of that comment. Dunno if it's in the book, but from the movie: Boromir: One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten thousand men could you do this. I…

Indeed, it says exactly there in the quote: > riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume As carbon monoxide is lighter than air, orcs and other creatures on the ground are less affected and probably more adapted to the poisonous atmosphere of Mordor; whereas the eagles flying high and accustomed to the clean air of Middle Earth would simply succumb to the prolonged exposure to CO…

Nice articulation of what I was thinking but didn't get out.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#104

Post by arethuza » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 6:37 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #99

arethuza wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"in WW I airplanes could only be used during the day" Night fighters were used during WW1 by the UK to defend against Zeppelin and Gotha heavy bomber attacks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_fighter

Yes but (ugh, sorry for the cliche) you're missing the forest for the trees. The issue is not that Tolkien didn't know of airplanes or of aerial warfare. But his most indelible memories of World War I was that of ground campaigns, and even though planes were used in WWI and reputations made (such as that of the Red Baron), they were by and large a fringe part of what comes to mind, at least compared to the introducti…

You sure you replied to the right comment? I was merely disagreeing with the assertion by btilly that airplanes were only used during the day in WW1. :-)

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#105

Post by craigching » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 6:38 PM UTC

Isn't the Third Age of Middle Earth the Age of Men? The Elves weren't intervening in a significant way, so why should the Eagles? I always figured that Gandalf chose this way (though he may not have allowed it to be viewed as him choosing it) because it really was the responsibility of Man (presumably Hobbits are thrown in with that lot) to resolve the issue.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#106

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 6:40 PM UTC

xymostech wrote: post #83

dageshi wrote: post #50

Crows. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Crebain If crows can be sent into the world to hunt for the ringbearer they can certainly patrol the skies around Mordor. Crows spy the eagles entering Mordor and forces are dispatched to counter them.

Did you read the whole article? "After Frodo and Sam entered Mordor thru Cirith Ungol, Sauron had fully ten days to contemplate the purpose of their mission into Mordor, and did not realize that their plan was to destroy the Ring until the last moment. Given that the Mouth of Sauron refers to the intruders as "spies", Sauron's most likely thought would be that the eagles are merely flying over his realm for reconnais…

[deleted]

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#107

Post by Scriptor » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 6:42 PM UTC

dmauro wrote: post #74

Scriptor wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time he had walked to Mt. Doom, Frodo was exhausted, weak, malnourished, and had carried the burden of the ring for a long time. These all contributed to him succumbing to its power. If the eagles had flown him, none of those factors would be at play. Frodo could have still had the strength to overcome the ring's power and throw it into the fires.

But as the author of the OP argues, Frodo may have become even better at resisting the ring as he made his way. The proximity to Sauron could have easily been the deciding factor rather than the hardships he faced which may have even strengthened him.

That's a good point. However, is there much textual evidence that Frodo specifically built up resistance to the ring, and not just strength of character?

I guess it comes down to the following factors that might have an effect on ring-resistance:

    - strength of character/will
    - strength of body
    - proximity to Sauron

It's probably impossible to know exactly how much each factor contributed, but still good material for fun debates.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#108

Post by danielweber » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 6:44 PM UTC

rush340 wrote: post #45

danielweber wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you don't tell the eagles on the mission what's up? Even if corruptible, it would take at least some time for them to figure out what's going on and which of the hobbitses they are carrying has the ring.

The Eagles seem very picky about when they help and who they're helping. I highly doubt they would do such a deed without Gandalf letting them in on the full story.

Well, you can tell some Eagles that "there is a very important mission to go on with Gandalf, and we need some eagles who don't know why we're going on the mission."

Like, you could have the Army move a box of stuff for you, and tell the army, but still have none of the soldiers know what's in the box.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#109

Post by angryasian » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 6:46 PM UTC

zeteo wrote: post #38

As the article points out, it's a question of stealth versus speed, but speed is not necessarily preferable. The powers of Sauron, especially deep within his own domain, are indeed unknown. With even an hour to react, it is quite possible he would be able to conjure up something that would end up in the whole endeavor delivering the ring to him, instead of destroying it. On the other hand, the stealthiness of hobbits…

> it is quite possible he would be able to conjure up something that would end up in the whole endeavor delivering the ring to him, instead of destroying it.

This is the exact argument the article is arguing against. You can only make assumptions based on what is known in the story. The author makes many valid arguments on why Sauron more than likely would not see it coming if it were to happen this way.

>quite possible he would be able to conjure up something

Its quite possible he wouldn't know. Its quite possible .. for anything to happen when you make random assumptions.

Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)

#110

Post by vedant » Thu, Mar 07, 2013, 6:52 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #4

I wonder how much of the thematic blindspot had to do with the technology of the day? The books were reportedly started on soon after The Hobbit (1939ish), before flight was the dominant theater for war. Even though the books were not published until after WW2, when aerial warfare became the new front of war, it seems that Tolkien's main experience in war was the hideous ground fighting in WWI, and he himself rebuffe…

It's worth noting that aerial battle does occur in Tolkien's work. In the Silmarillion, Earendil the mariner sails on his flying ship to Middle-earth during the War of Wrath, and helps the Valar and eagles defeat Ancalagon, Morgoth's flying dragon.