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Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

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331–340 of 346 posts

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#331
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if this constitutes a "power user" usage pattern, but watching a colleague try to work with Unity with dual monitors was hugely amusing. I'm curious to know what you can do in one command in bazaar that you need 4 in git to do.

Here's my power user setup for dual monitors with Unity: 1. Plug in dual monitor to HDMI port. 2. Use Unity. What did your colleague have trouble with? (Four might have been slight hyperbole, but git is a usability nightmare. I forget what exact task I can do in one command that it takes 3-4 to do in git, there's probably some set of absurd arguments to do it in fewer, but I don't know them and am not willing to spen…

> What did your colleague have trouble with?

I remember him trying to move a window to the other monitor and having bounce back repeatedly. Very funny to watch.

> git is a usability nightmare.

No argument here. The design of the commandline UI is terrible ("git checkout" is the first offender you're likely to meet). However, it's powerful enough that I'm using all the time, occasionally bridging with SVN when needed. Once you get hooked on cheap local branching, you can never give up.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#332
post #327
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sort of obvious? I can't see any other reason Apple would have for it, other than making compilers researchers have slightly easier lives. It'd certainly make sense after they were forced to open source the frontend for Objective-C.

Apple had two technical needs that GCC could not reasonably satisfy. One was to compile Core Image filters. When you make a chain of filters, they treat it as a single complicated filter which they JIT compile and optimize for your GPU or CPU (I believe they decide at run time which to target based on what will be best for the particular complex filter you have defined). Another technical need they had was for a comp…

So would you say that Apple is definitely only funding LLVM so they can drop their dependency on GCC?

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#333
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a shallow view of the situation. Your metric is essentially "no knowledge is lost from the Free world." However, this means that all free software developers could die tomorrow and your metric would be satisfied. A better metric is "the most free software that could be made is made." Switching from a GPLd compiler platform to a non-copyleft "freemium" Apple platform is worse for this. If you don't care about…

I think you're setting up a false dichotomy here. "You care" or "you don't care". Reality is more nuanced than that. Also, the idea of "all free software developers dying tomorrow' is just hyperbole, since the chances of that happening are essentially nil. Yes, we'd all like to maximize the amount of F/OSS software in the world. F/OSS is a Good Thing, and I founded a company based around F/OSS for a reason. But it's…

> Also, the idea of "all free software developers dying tomorrow' is just hyperbole, since the chances of that happening are essentially nil.

That is exactly my point. You proposed a metric for the health of the free software culture: "Nothing that is free now is non-free in the future." This is a bad metric because if you eliminate all free software development, it reports "everything is okay."

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#334
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're setting up a false dichotomy here. "You care" or "you don't care". Reality is more nuanced than that. Also, the idea of "all free software developers dying tomorrow' is just hyperbole, since the chances of that happening are essentially nil. Yes, we'd all like to maximize the amount of F/OSS software in the world. F/OSS is a Good Thing, and I founded a company based around F/OSS for a reason. But it's…

> Also, the idea of "all free software developers dying tomorrow' is just hyperbole, since the chances of that happening are essentially nil. That is exactly my point. You proposed a metric for the health of the free software culture: "Nothing that is free now is non-free in the future." This is a bad metric because if you eliminate all free software development, it reports "everything is okay."

You proposed a metric for the health of the free software culture: "Nothing that is free now is non-free in the future."

It seems to me that you're turning something analog into something binary. "Nothing that is free now is non-free in the future" is true, relative to any particular project, and is - as a worst case - not so horrible. But applying that to "free software culture" in general, as a comparison to the idea of ALL free software development stopping, doesn't sound reasonable to me. It's like you're suggesting that, say, Apple, moving away from GPL'd "Free" software towards BSD software (and possibly a "free core" model) automatically implies that everybody else does too. But that's just as likely to happen as your hypothetical of every Free software developer dying tomorrow.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#335
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of user interface have those standards delivered? I remember fonts being really screwed up for a long time. Longer that it should have been. Just getting anti-aliased fonts was major deal. Then graphics drivers are a mess. I blame manufacturers of devices here. But still treating it as a black box I just see that is inferior. I know Linus flipped of NVidia but at the same time is a chicken and egg problem. W…

> Let them innovate If Canonical were good at it, everybody would be saying "yeah, go for it!" But they're not. Every time they strike out on their own, they seem to end up producing overly complex, badly performing, messes, with tons of issues, that everybody hates. bzr, unity, ... The only reason people use any of their stuff is because ubuntu pushes it on their users, and people with little experience end up using…

I beg to differ. I used Redhat, Mandrake, Gentoo, Debian, and now Ubuntu and I have been happily using Ubuntu for a long time now. Unity is great. I barely need to do any configuration with it, everything just works. Under the hood it's still good ol' old-school Linux.

I have tried Mint on 2 other computers for all the talk about Mint being the next great Distro, I find it to be far less stable than Ubuntu. I have also started only using Ubuntu's LTS releases with a handful of PPAs to get more recent packages. Helps with stability a lot.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#336
post #332
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple had two technical needs that GCC could not reasonably satisfy. One was to compile Core Image filters. When you make a chain of filters, they treat it as a single complicated filter which they JIT compile and optimize for your GPU or CPU (I believe they decide at run time which to target based on what will be best for the particular complex filter you have defined). Another technical need they had was for a comp…

So would you say that Apple is definitely only funding LLVM so they can drop their dependency on GCC?

Circular snark is circular.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 ) I was also under that impression, but coming to think about it who created that expectation, the community or Canonical? I don't know. 2) Calling unity a fiasco, is like calling it a failure. Which I believe is simply not true. Yes some people didn't like it and moved on or made their opinions heard on forums etc. But Canonical has a plan with Unity, and at the end of the day it gives a better user experience to…

re: Unity - agree. Although I was initially skeptical, now I like it, and it makes more sense in the context of ubuntu on tablets.

I still use Unity, for some reason, and I am shell-shocked it was allowed to be released.

I've never worried about window focus failing to work properly until Unity. I've never had terminal windows fail to be refreshed when scrolling text until Unity.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#338
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, the idea of "all free software developers dying tomorrow' is just hyperbole, since the chances of that happening are essentially nil. That is exactly my point. You proposed a metric for the health of the free software culture: "Nothing that is free now is non-free in the future." This is a bad metric because if you eliminate all free software development, it reports "everything is okay."

You proposed a metric for the health of the free software culture: "Nothing that is free now is non-free in the future." It seems to me that you're turning something analog into something binary. "Nothing that is free now is non-free in the future" is true, relative to any particular project, and is - as a worst case - not so horrible. But applying that to "free software culture" in general, as a comparison to the id…

The "every free software developer dying tomorrow" is a hypothetical statement that has nothing at all to do with Apple. It was in my comment because it's a great way to illustrate that even if things aren't explicitly subtracted from the Free world, the Free world is harmed if its growth is slowed.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#339
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let them innovate If Canonical were good at it, everybody would be saying "yeah, go for it!" But they're not. Every time they strike out on their own, they seem to end up producing overly complex, badly performing, messes, with tons of issues, that everybody hates. bzr, unity, ... The only reason people use any of their stuff is because ubuntu pushes it on their users, and people with little experience end up using…

[if Canonical were] gaining users the hard way, by being better, then nobody would blink an eye. Maybe they are "being better". I have no doubt that technically Wayland is better than Mir, but for me (as a user who lost interest in configuring Linux back when FVWM95 was considered interesting) I don't care . I use Ubuntu (including Unity!) because it works . I never, ever want to deal with weird configurations to wor…

I agree. I for one, also like Unity. My mother who is in her late 60 also learned it quickly now likes it. Interface is less cluttered and easier to use.

At first there was a small learning curve, but I don't remember often thinking "hmm, I wish I had my GNOME 2 environment or my KDE environment back".

Maybe I too got old and spending hours tweaking my GUI settings just stopped being fun. I just want to fire up the machine and get work done.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#340
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You proposed a metric for the health of the free software culture: "Nothing that is free now is non-free in the future." It seems to me that you're turning something analog into something binary. "Nothing that is free now is non-free in the future" is true, relative to any particular project, and is - as a worst case - not so horrible. But applying that to "free software culture" in general, as a comparison to the id…

The "every free software developer dying tomorrow" is a hypothetical statement that has nothing at all to do with Apple. It was in my comment because it's a great way to illustrate that even if things aren't explicitly subtracted from the Free world, the Free world is harmed if its growth is slowed.

the Free world is harmed if its growth is slowed.

OK, but "harmed" is a broad term. I'm harmed if I stub my toe, but I'm also "harmed" if I fall of a bridge and land on my head and crack 4 vertebrae. But there's a big difference between those things.

And anyway, my point was (at least partly) that the growth doesn't necessarily stop because of - for example - the Apple deal (or something like it) because people can always fork. And if the last GPL'd version of something that goes closed is popular enough, it gets forked. See: Nessus[1] / OpenVAS[2].

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nessus_%28software%29

[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVAS

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