Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

wiki.ubuntu.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 346 posts

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#241

Post by ithkuil »

sneak wrote: post #42
zamnedix wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Linux and I don't even use a graphical environment most of the time because all it does is slow me down. (When I do use one, it's Ratpoison.) The most effective Linux developers I know work similarly. I believe this is a large cause of us being "senselessly married to terrible in-group traditions and the status quo". I don't know if you're calling all Linux users idiots or what, but I consider Linux idiots as t…

I am not calling all linux users idiots. I made a picture for you to clarify: http://i.imgur.com/ulGCde2.png (not to scale.)

Why?

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#242

Post by zobzu »

chc wrote: post #126
zobzu wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience distros attempting to keep things as close as possible to packages upstream (except for bug fixes) are always the most useable, stable, etc. So I sort of prefer the "authoritarianism" from upstream. Additionally, an upstream package has authority only on ONE component. The distro has authority on ALL components. That makes ALL the difference.

I actually agree. I like Debian better than Ubuntu because I feel like its packages are generally more reliable for my use. But that doesn't mean I would declare Ubuntu to be "horrible" — just not to my taste. I respect Ubuntu's ambition and hope they are successful in what they are trying to accomplish.

Yeah, I'm not saying Ubuntu is horrible by any means, but I have better luck with distros taking another direction, for the reasons mentioned

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#243

Post by zobzu »

signed0 wrote: post #109
zobzu wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, like Unity cough or upstart cough . RH is doing similar stuff, although they're more deeply involved, and while I don't especially like how they impose some of their technology, at least it's generally well though out.

Upstart is available in the Debian package repos, and it was used for a while by Red Hat before they switched to Systemd.

Fedora package != RHEL defaults. Debian package != Debian defaults.

RHEL 6.4 still uses systemv init, in fact.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#244

Post by rodgerd »

shurcooL wrote: post #194
acabal wrote: post #33

Maybe this is a good idea, I don't know about X/Wayland enough to say. But it worries me that Ubuntu is increasingly striking out on its own. What I like about the GNU/Linux ecosystem is that a lot of distros share a lot of common underpinnings, and everyone benefits from a large community fixing bugs and improving those underpinnings. It's also less knowledge to have to keep in your head for system administration st…

As long as what Ubuntu is creating is open source and easily adopted by others (if it's good), what's the problem?

Wayland is already mostly there, was put together by experienced X developers who've given up on trying to make X do everything modern display environments work. The main problem with moving away from X has been the lack of a single, demonstrably better target to move to. Mir will fragment that effort, and the rationale seems to be "NIH".

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#245

Post by rodgerd »

hmo09 wrote: post #14
pilgrim689 wrote: post #10

I don't understand all the negative reactions. Canonical is recognizing various problems in making GNU/Linux mainstream. They are then innovating at a deeper level (fixing root causes rather than duct-taping) to ultimately attempt to really attract the layman to a mobile or desktop GNU/Linux distro. Devs don't need to target Mir if they don't want to, Linux users can switch to another Debian if they don't like it, an…

Regardless of the technical considerations, Linux and its surrounding ecosystem has a long history of many different companies co-operating on core software. Canonical's philosophy seems to fly directly against that - so far we have: Launchpad / Upstart / Unity / Mir Launchpad is free-software by name only, and Canonical actively discourage you to setup your own instance. Upstart hasn't been widely adopted outside of…

Don't forget the copyright assignments required by Canonical. Open source, but we get to own your source" is a thin model of open source.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#247

Post by jlgreco »

achiang wrote: post #220
jlgreco wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has desktop Linux been a failure? By what measure, adoption of people who are not in it's niche market? Would it stop being a "failure" if we got a bunch of laymen using it? Compare community desktop linux distros with community distros of something more oriented towards the masses... say.. Android. The Debian Project is a well oiled machine, coherent and consistent. Everything has a well defined process. Technically…

You keep putting up strawmen. Show me the desktop Linux equivalent of Android, not Cyanogenmod. It doesn't exist - and you can measure that failure with any number of metrics. If Ubuntu can achieve that type of success and protect the freedom of users with the GPL (instead of the permissive BSD model for hardware makers) then we will have accomplished something in the world.

You have missed the point. Show me the Android equivalent of Debian.

Show me an Android project, with all of the unskilled users that come with it, that is anywhere near as organized as the Debian Project. Show me that legions of unskilled users have allowed this Android project to achieve hardware compatibility at all comparable to what Debian achieves on the desktop.

Such a project does not exist. I assert that it does not exist in no small part because they have too many unskilled users, and because hardware support does not materialize as soon as you reach some sort of "critical mass" of unskilled users.

Idiot users are toxic; anything that touches them rots. Only corporations that are prepared to completely disregard community involvement are capable of wielding an idiot userbases. Canonical is neither up to that task nor does it even appear to be pretending to be. Why? Probably because the lunatics run the asylum.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#248

Post by dthunt »

benjiweber wrote: post #191
metachris wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides of being too slow to run on current phones, and not natively supporting 3D acceleration, these are the reasons mentioned in the article: "With respect to shell development (Unity), three major shortcomings of the X stack prevent us from delivering the user experience (f’n’f) we have in mind: * X shares a lot of system state across process boundaries. This is obviously not a problem in itself but a system-leve…

There may be plenty of issues with X, but it runs fine on the n900 and n9. It's not too slow to run on current phones.

Also, it says something when #3 on your big list of complaints about X is that switching graphics modes when starting X is a major problem that needs to be fixed.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#249

Post by rodgerd »

kunai wrote: post #6

I suppose it's time to switch to Fedora, now, even though I've been holding out for as long as humanly possible. This just pushes me over the edge.

Consider OpenSUSE. I've been distro-hopping for a while, and I've ended up delighted how well it works.

Fedora is now about as stable as Rawhide used to be.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#250

Post by tedks »

snogglethorpe wrote: post #231
rdtsc wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of user interface have those standards delivered? I remember fonts being really screwed up for a long time. Longer that it should have been. Just getting anti-aliased fonts was major deal. Then graphics drivers are a mess. I blame manufacturers of devices here. But still treating it as a black box I just see that is inferior. I know Linus flipped of NVidia but at the same time is a chicken and egg problem. W…

> Let them innovate If Canonical were good at it, everybody would be saying "yeah, go for it!" But they're not. Every time they strike out on their own, they seem to end up producing overly complex, badly performing, messes, with tons of issues, that everybody hates. bzr, unity, ... The only reason people use any of their stuff is because ubuntu pushes it on their users, and people with little experience end up using…

Can you elaborate on what you dislike about bazaar and Unity? Or how Canonical is able to "force" a vcs on its userbase?

I've used Unity since it was released, never had any issues, and generally think it's the best GNU/Linux window shell around.

Bazaar is also ridiculously simple, and I've started using it as a front-end to every other vcs. The support for git is a little rough, but I can do in one command what git users have to do in four, so I deal with it.

I think that the vocal minority of Ubuntu power-users (which is sort of a laughable term) hates change. This is what made Unity such a "failure" when really it's a pretty great system.

Post reply on HN