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Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

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Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#91

Post by Sanddancer »

iso-8859-1 wrote: post #80
Sanddancer wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upstart was used because it was better than traditional init, and was used by Fedora as well. Then again, Linux could have had a much better init system many years ago, but the GPL zealots wouldn't hear of having launchd, and its less restrictive license, be used.

I don't think that's the reason. Apple even relicensed launchd to make it easier to use. It still didn't get adopted.

To clarify, my comment was that even before relicensing, launchd was under a less restrictive license than the GPL -- the APSL allows for binary linking -- but had clauses that didn't allow people to GPL their code. By the time launchd was relicensed, ubuntu had already released upstart, and another init replacement so quickly would have alienated people.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#92

Post by simpsond »

acabal wrote: post #33

Maybe this is a good idea, I don't know about X/Wayland enough to say. But it worries me that Ubuntu is increasingly striking out on its own. What I like about the GNU/Linux ecosystem is that a lot of distros share a lot of common underpinnings, and everyone benefits from a large community fixing bugs and improving those underpinnings. It's also less knowledge to have to keep in your head for system administration st…

They are not changing the path of Linux, but the path of graphical UX on Linux. I think it's a good thing. The GUI is simple enough for my grandma to use, yet I can open a terminal and have a very familiar experience. I see no harm here, as they will not diverge from Linux itself.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#93

Post by raverbashing »

jlgreco wrote: post #65
raverbashing wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me ask you some questions then: - How often do you reboot your computer - What audio softwares you use the most For me, PA crashes around once a week (and this is with the latest version I tried), or just plain stops working (like muting the sound, garbled sound, etc) Not to mention the delay that happens while switching songs in mplayer for example. Use ALSA and song switch is instantaneous.

> - How often do you reboot your computer Once every two or three months, when I remember to apply updates. > - What audio softwares you use the most Only flash (youtube, primarily. Also youtube's html5 player probably, I haven't paid much attention to that) and mplayer. A few years ago, XMMS2. I used to use an XMMS2 client I wrote for music, now I just use some bash scripts and mplayer; I can't say I've noticed any…

Very interesting. I thought some instability may be due to PA staying up for a long time, but apparently not.

About the delay, try this: mplayer *mp3 (in a directory with mp3 files, of course), then press >. There should be a significant delay in switching songs (like, 0.5s). Make sure mplayer shows it's using the [Pulse] driver

With ALSA this is very fast

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#94

Post by shmerl »

acabal wrote: post #33

Maybe this is a good idea, I don't know about X/Wayland enough to say. But it worries me that Ubuntu is increasingly striking out on its own. What I like about the GNU/Linux ecosystem is that a lot of distros share a lot of common underpinnings, and everyone benefits from a large community fixing bugs and improving those underpinnings. It's also less knowledge to have to keep in your head for system administration st…

It doesn't sound like a good idea. What's wrong with Wayland?

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#95

Post by chetzit »

0x09 wrote: post #20
pilgrim689 wrote: post #10

I don't understand all the negative reactions. Canonical is recognizing various problems in making GNU/Linux mainstream. They are then innovating at a deeper level (fixing root causes rather than duct-taping) to ultimately attempt to really attract the layman to a mobile or desktop GNU/Linux distro. Devs don't need to target Mir if they don't want to, Linux users can switch to another Debian if they don't like it, an…

I think there are probably three obvious reasons. 1) For the past two years or so the community has been led to believe Canonical would be adopting Wayland. After the slow build of anticipation over that, it was dropped out of the blue. 2) Simple distrust of Canonical's homemade projects after the Unity fiasco. 3) Fragmentation of effort to unseat X. The chance of repeating the history of every other display server t…

"Unity fiasco" Wait, what?

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#96

Post by thechut »

jjcm wrote: post #70
kunai wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I like about the GNU/Linux ecosystem is that a lot of distros share a lot of common underpinnings, and everyone benefits from a large community fixing bugs and improving those underpinnings Exactly. Standards exist in the GNU/Linux world for reason. Mir, Unity, etc. all don't seem to play too well with other distros and are very tightly integrated with Ubuntu; if this continues Ubuntu might turn into a slightl…

Standards are great and all, but holding on to those standards is what's keeping back the UX of linux. Gnome3 is familiar, but very dated. X is supported by all, but it's a tangled mess that everyone hates. Yes Ubuntu is straying from the pack, but I'd rather have them stray and the rest follow when they find something good then have the entire linux community sit in the same place they have been for years. Regardles…

Exactly this. My chosen distro is Linux Mint. Based on Ubuntu but going its own direction.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#97

Post by metachris »

crististm wrote: post #52
BruceIV wrote: post #29

On the one hand, this looks like one good way to get rid of the massive bag of hurt that is X; on the other, seriously Canonical? Re-inventing another huge chunk of the stack just because? NIH syndrome much?

Pardon my ignorance, but what is wrong with X, anyway?

Besides of being too slow to run on current phones, and not natively supporting 3D acceleration, these are the reasons mentioned in the article:

"With respect to shell development (Unity), three major shortcomings of the X stack prevent us from delivering the user experience (f’n’f) we have in mind:

* X shares a lot of system state across process boundaries. This is obviously not a problem in itself but a system-level UI that is meant to provide a beautiful and consistent user experience is likely to require tight control over the overall system state.

* X's input model is complex and allows applications to spoof on input events they do not own. On the one hand, this raises serious security concerns, especially regarding mobile platforms. On the other hand, adjusting and extending X's input model is difficult and supporting features like input event batching and compression, motion event prediction together with associated power-saving strategies or flexible synchronization schemes for aligning input event delivery and rendering operations is (too) complex.

* The compositor hierarchy ends on the session level, and no tight integration into the system from boot time onward is available. For that reason, there is a visible glitch when transitioning the system from a VT-level to the graphical shell level."

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#98

Post by mseebach »

kunai wrote: post #39
acabal wrote: post #33

Maybe this is a good idea, I don't know about X/Wayland enough to say. But it worries me that Ubuntu is increasingly striking out on its own. What I like about the GNU/Linux ecosystem is that a lot of distros share a lot of common underpinnings, and everyone benefits from a large community fixing bugs and improving those underpinnings. It's also less knowledge to have to keep in your head for system administration st…

> What I like about the GNU/Linux ecosystem is that a lot of distros share a lot of common underpinnings, and everyone benefits from a large community fixing bugs and improving those underpinnings Exactly. Standards exist in the GNU/Linux world for reason. Mir, Unity, etc. all don't seem to play too well with other distros and are very tightly integrated with Ubuntu; if this continues Ubuntu might turn into a slightl…

There are very few standards in the GNU/Linux world. GNU and Linux has, by themselves, become standards through ubiquity. POSIX is one, yes, but it's woefully inadequate when you've gotten used to all the bells and whistles any modern GNU/Linux distro puts on top of it by default.

And what about the BSDs? They certainly doesn't play well with Linux, or vice versa, but that's hardly an argument for calling either an agent for closedness.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#99

Post by csense »

scotu wrote: post #76
0x09 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are probably three obvious reasons. 1) For the past two years or so the community has been led to believe Canonical would be adopting Wayland. After the slow build of anticipation over that, it was dropped out of the blue. 2) Simple distrust of Canonical's homemade projects after the Unity fiasco. 3) Fragmentation of effort to unseat X. The chance of repeating the history of every other display server t…

"Unity fiasco": any data on the net decrease of ubuntu users caused by unity?

I personally dropped Ubuntu for Linux Mint.

I've heard a lot of people say they hate Unity.

It's not hard data, but it's anecdotal evidence that there's a substantial set of people that really hate it.

Re: Ubuntu will switch from X window server to Mir

#100

Post by oneweekwonder »

0x09 wrote: post #20
pilgrim689 wrote: post #10

I don't understand all the negative reactions. Canonical is recognizing various problems in making GNU/Linux mainstream. They are then innovating at a deeper level (fixing root causes rather than duct-taping) to ultimately attempt to really attract the layman to a mobile or desktop GNU/Linux distro. Devs don't need to target Mir if they don't want to, Linux users can switch to another Debian if they don't like it, an…

I think there are probably three obvious reasons. 1) For the past two years or so the community has been led to believe Canonical would be adopting Wayland. After the slow build of anticipation over that, it was dropped out of the blue. 2) Simple distrust of Canonical's homemade projects after the Unity fiasco. 3) Fragmentation of effort to unseat X. The chance of repeating the history of every other display server t…

1 ) I was also under that impression, but coming to think about it who created that expectation, the community or Canonical? I don't know.

2) Calling unity a fiasco, is like calling it a failure. Which I believe is simply not true.

Yes some people didn't like it and moved on or made their opinions heard on forums etc.

But Canonical has a plan with Unity, and at the end of the day it gives a better user experience to me and hopefully a lot of other Ubuntu users.

3) There is reasons to unseat X and there is reasons not to unseat X. But what to unseat it with lies with the people that have certain problems, and maybe the problems Ubuntu face with mir is differently to the problems wayland and its community face.

I personally would like to see two different tools, then one large tool like X, and if you read the article they explain why they decided on mir instead.

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