Live data from Hacker News

Teach kids to farm, not code.

kimburgess.info

91–100 of 170 posts

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#91
post #7

"This thing #{X} that I am inexperienced at is much harder than this thing #{Y} I spent years doing because I am experienced at #{Y} and have some idea how to do it and thus it feels comfortable. Why, I am going to go so far as to talk down everybody who still does #{Y}, partly because I'm somewhat burnt out on it, and partly because my comparative experience makes me feel like it's easy compared to #{X}." Where:- *…

Programmers' world is populated with very abstract concepts that they use to reason and draw conclusions. I think this post discuss the applicability of this reasoning outside of the virtual sphere. So assigning farming to #{X}, programming to #{Y} and then reasoning over X and Y without considering the reality of farming and programming is surely not the proper way to address this problem. In other words, I disagree…

My point is that the OP and his father are making value judgments - firstly the title, secondly:-

"Growing food is far more challenging, requires an order of magnitude more knowledge and continuous learning and dedication."

Problems I have with this:-

* First and foremost, this is a pissing match. A better way of putting this might have been 'I found this more challenging, etc.' instead of some sweeping divisive comparison.

* It's meaningless - programming and farming are massive fields, what exactly are we comparing? Farming carrots in my allotment vs. a modern industrial farm. Hello world in qbasic vs. the linux kernel. Etc. etc. etc...

What's frustrating is that there are some really interesting points about, as you say, the real world applications of things, abstractness of programming, etc., but it's hidden below this unnecessary grumpy attack stuff.

Of course there's the just very grumpy:-

"Why are programmers granted such high status and wealth in our society for living in a self-created self-indulgant intellectual world of constant escapism"

Well, SpaceX did escape the atmosphere using some self-created self-indulgent intellectualisms ;-)

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#92

I don't understand. We've spent thousands of years, using 99.9% of able-bodied people for farming, hunting or some other food-gathering activities. Only selected few could afford to NOT work in farming. Even America, just 200 years ago had 90% of its population working as farmers. Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Sure, the food industry is not always honest,not always as good as…

"Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? " Because most of them have no idea just how grim the life of a subsistence peasant farmer really is, and how that differs from the lucky few who get to sell boutique "organic" produce to rich people.

This - I think a lot of the organic-eating SWPL crowd / upper middle class have a very idealized notion of "life on a farm" and growing your own food. I worked on a farm for six months as a kid and what I learned was that it was exhausting, back breaking work, and hours sweating in the sun all day.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#93
post #5

The big point is actually that currently we (as in, the whole world) have far more farmers than we need (especially in the developing countries) and less coders than we need. And in the future, automation and coders will ensure that we will need even less farmers. How much population do we really need to tend all global arable land using modern methods machinery? Currently in developed countries it's somewhere near 2…

Driving the equipment around is the fun part, but not the real work that goes into the business. Farming is actually quite challenging. A recent problem I remember having on my farm: Soil is full of wet lumps of clay, unsuitable for planting, cultivators are not breaking them up and you have a few day window to fix the problem before it gets too late into the season to plant the crop. What do you do? I actually agree…

Honestly, that sounds to me like "Oh, god. What would happen if everyone could drive?" Er, people would have more individual choice. But we would still need buses and stuff anyway. (And you will always have some non-drivers.)

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#94
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Because people forgot in a hanfdul of years (that's what it is, compared to the span of human history) what was slowly learned over the course of centuries and millennia. And the result? That kids nowadays almost think that foods magically pops out from the shelf at the supermarket. Specialization (in the sense that nobody does everything, every…

"You never know". But guess what - the apocalypse is not coming. It didn't come in the 20s, 30s, 40s...you get the picture. There's never an apocalypse coming. And even if there were - you probably won't live through it. And if you do...then the better question is why didn't you stop it in the first place? Farming today has to be a large scale, highly studied and high-yielding enterprise. There's lots of room for imp…

Actually apocalypse did come-- in the last century there was mass starvation in Russia, China, Ukraine, Ethiopia, North Korea and more....literally tens of millions of people starved to death within living memory. Plus, large scale factory farming is not necessarily the economically optimal way to farm. We can't know because the US and other governments MASSIVELY subsidize factory farming...the market is extraordinarily distorted. Even further, there are questionable regulatory burdens foisted on small farming operations.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#95
post #78

I don't think we should encourage anyone to do anything. We should discourage them. Let me explain... I take my example from this traditional practice of Rabbis: never accept a convert until they have been turned away twice before. Make them make 3 attempts to show their determination. Why? Because Judaism is hard. If they're not committed, they'll either give up or do just enough to satisify the minimum requirements…

its true. thanks man.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#96

I think the real takeaway from this is good programmers code, great programmers solve problems. Writing computer code is the means to the end, not the end itself. So we need to learn something else to go along with it. It could be farming. It could be business or finance. It could be sports and fitness. Preferably different people will fall into different categories. The analogy isn't perfect, but think of learning t…

The problem with "great programmers solve problems" is that great programmers are often reluctant to solve problems that don't involve programming.

Farming is interesting because you need to make use of all of the tools at your disposal (including programming, electronics, mechanics, etc.) to solve the problems of the farm – of which there are many!

Students often have difficulty seeing the forest for the trees. The purpose of teaching coding may be to teach analytical skills, but the students will only see coding. Very few will know how to take those lessons and apply it to, say, a mechanical machine to automate their life.

Great people solve problems – the tool they use doesn't matter. I do think learning to farm would go a long way to instil that in students.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#98

I don't understand. We've spent thousands of years, using 99.9% of able-bodied people for farming, hunting or some other food-gathering activities. Only selected few could afford to NOT work in farming. Even America, just 200 years ago had 90% of its population working as farmers. Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Sure, the food industry is not always honest,not always as good as…

> Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Because people forgot in a hanfdul of years (that's what it is, compared to the span of human history) what was slowly learned over the course of centuries and millennia. And the result? That kids nowadays almost think that foods magically pops out from the shelf at the supermarket. Specialization (in the sense that nobody does everything, every…

No intelligent person thinks food magically pops onto shelves. It is not necessary to play farmer in order to know where food comes from. Do you know how make your own steel? Neither do I. I'm not worried about it.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#99
post #72

> Growing food is far more challenging ...NOT!!! I know you Americans tend to see having a basic little vegetable garden as "black magic", but it's really something one can learn in under a week and based on this knowledge grow things to the point that one can actually produce enough for sale and maybe run a small business! But's you can't learn programming well enough to actually get any benefit out of it, let alone…

Since I've been trying to deconstruct "programmer" into "systems analyst" and "coder" in other comments, I might as well continue in that vein here, but with a slightly different tack:

Farming is a lot more like "software engineering" than "programming". You can't pause a farm. It's an "engine" that you have to keep running, no matter what calamity occurs (weather, breakdowns, etc.)

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#100
post #81
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it matter where stuff comes from? I haven't the foggiest idea where my wood flooring came from, where my windows came from, or where my TV came from, nor my water, electricity, or the waste disposal guys who pick up my garbage. Yet for some reason it matters where my food comes from? Really, why?

food is more important and under greater threat (see http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/magazine/the-extraordinary... ) than your TV, electricity, wood flooring, or windows.

You might want to keep an eye on the slowly collapsing US electrical grid. The number of annual major blackouts has skyrocketed over the last 20 years.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/im...

Post reply on HN