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Teach kids to farm, not code.

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Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#61

Post by jmduke »

rorrr wrote: post #28
fsniper wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives. Coding only makes you better micro managers, "thinking of efficient ways to make idiots do things you like". Also teaching agriculture or other physical goods producing craftsmanship to kids would make them better at real world challenges. Modern society seems to be run by digital…

> I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives That makes no sense. I've taken literature, I've read hundreds of books on my own. Most of them are full of illogical things. At best they are OK to teach morals, not logic. Philosophy is closer. Computer programming is pretty much pure logic and problem solving. The only better…

> That makes no sense. I've taken literature, I've read hundreds of books on my own. Most of them are full of illogical things. At best they are OK to teach morals, not logic.

Not trying to be snarky, but what level literature classes did you take?

I was an English major for a few semesters and I found that there were a league of differences between an introductory course which was little better than reading something on my own (plus a professor's gospel, which we were asked to support or comment but never refute) -- and an upper-level course, which was more centered around research: diving inside of a text and an author, plumbing for patterns and arguments much like one would dive into JavaDocs.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#62

Post by cpressey »

empoman wrote: post #46
cpressey wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your point. But to riff off dschiptsov's comment, how do you define "programming" (as opposed to, say, "coding"), and how does knowing programming help you answer questions like "How can I speed up harvesting on my farm?" I would call the ability to understand and solve those kinds of problems analysis , not programming. It used to be the case that "systems analyst" and "programmer" were two different jo…

That's a fair question, so I'll try to explain how I see it. Problem analysis as you mentioning it, to me, seems like the theoretical form of programming. So here I see "coding", or programming, as an easy way to practice problem analysis in a real context, and not just by going through a text book like we do with math in school. And I agree with you regarding programmers and system analysts. There are so many titles…

That's a reasonable answer, and yes, it makes sense.

You could say analysis is a theoretical form of programming, or correspondingly, that programming is an applied form of analysis -- specifically, applied on computers.

I guess my main reservation is that if kids' first exposure to analysis is through programming, there's a risk of skewing their perception towards looking for solutions that use computers. ("When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.")

In my experience, I've seen problems that have been approached like: We're doing X too slowly, and it's costing us; what kind of computerized tool can we build to let us do X more quickly? And after the tool has been built, it introduces a new set of processes with its own set of burdens, and X is not really done significantly more quickly. My conclusion is that you often need to step back and re-examine what people are actually doing (and why), and what they actually want to accomplish (and why.)

(And a significant obstacle with that is that people develop habits, and they get comfortable with them, and don't want to change them -- so, without knowing the details of the problem, the first step in "How can I speed up harvesting?" would probably be to have some willingness and flexibility to try out variations in your methods of harvesting.)

If we can find ways of teaching kids to program that build their problem-solving skills while also not clouding their heads with the idea that computers are necessarily part of the best solution, I'm all for it.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#63

Post by ihatehandles »

I'm surprised by the article really. For decades geeks have been mocked and ridiculed in society and the media. Fast forward to this last decade the wider world understands geeks and the geeks' work has made lives better (in some ways) for a lot of people. And now they are the criminals?

There isn't a god-like status, the internet and blogs are built by nerds so yes they will have their praise there, much as you will see farmers being praised in Africa where i'm from. Geeks aren't even called geeks because 1. they are far apart 2. no one even understands what we do in the first place. We all almost know each other because there's so few of us

Of course we need farmers, we need doctors, ventriloquists: we need all sorts of trades but when you find a different calling don't make yourself feel better by ridiculing other people's careers.

Or maybe, just maybe, because tech is the hype where you are and in your media you feel other trades are being neglected. Whether that's true or not for WHERE YOU LIVE i don't know. I do understand your frustration with the code.org campaign though, which makes it seem like kids won't get identity documents because they can't code (lol). But for the rest of the world outside the valley? We actually need more coders.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#64

Post by philhippus »

rorrr wrote: post #39
adestefan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why people think programming us the pinnacle of problem solving. Just about any trade involves just as much logical thinking and problem solving.

Really? Any trade? Car salesmen are sitting and solving logical problems? Programming is very close to logic. Of course, there are other fields that require logic and problem solving. Engineering, science, for instance.

>Car salesmen are sitting and solving logical problems?

If they aren't then they will be unsuccessful as car salesmen. Apart from "how can I sell more cars?" there is "what is the optimal number of cars I can fit in my showroom?", "how shall I present my most profitable deal to its most likely demographic?", "which aspects of my communication skills can be improved?"...the list is endless. Point being there are logical challenges to be solved everywhere.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#65

Post by wazoox »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #24
motters wrote: post #18

What will the problems of the next generation be, and how do we prepare them for that? On the face of it the next few generations face huge issues. The only thing we know for certain is that the way we live now is totally unsustainable in the long run, and that new solutions will need to be found to old and unglamorous problems. More localised food production might be one way to help them through what looks like a tu…

"The only thing we know for certain is that the way we live now is totally unsustainable in the long run" We "know" this how, exactly? Malthus was saying the same thing in 1798. Paul Ehrlich was saying the same thing in 1968. They were both dead wrong. "The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970's and 1980's hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon…

Malthus was exactly right, but he couldn't anticipate the coming industrial revolution and the explosion of energy availability through fossil fuels. There may be an equivalent revolution looming, but I can see no sign of it. For all purposes, Malthus could be right 200 years late.

Most people seem to stick to "the system has worked for 350 years, so it must be able to go on indefinitely".

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#66

Post by vollmarj »

raverbashing wrote: post #6

Yes, farming is hard, very hard Most here don't appreciate how hard it is (especially if you're inexperienced) Do people still grow beans using a cotton in a cup? Do they still teach that at schools? That's basically the 'hello world' of farming Of course, depends on what you are doing, type of plants, inside a greenhouse or in an open field, the scale of it etc. Not to mention raising animals. That's very hard as we…

You are absolutely correct. I grew up on a farm and I'm now building FarmLogs because of how tough farming can be. Maybe introducing better technology into the farm can blend both programming and farming.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#67

Post by randomdata »

PeterisP wrote: post #5

The big point is actually that currently we (as in, the whole world) have far more farmers than we need (especially in the developing countries) and less coders than we need. And in the future, automation and coders will ensure that we will need even less farmers. How much population do we really need to tend all global arable land using modern methods machinery? Currently in developed countries it's somewhere near 2…

Driving the equipment around is the fun part, but not the real work that goes into the business. Farming is actually quite challenging.

A recent problem I remember having on my farm: Soil is full of wet lumps of clay, unsuitable for planting, cultivators are not breaking them up and you have a few day window to fix the problem before it gets too late into the season to plant the crop. What do you do?

I actually agree that the point is to attract more programmers into the industry, but the consequences of that seem dangerous. What happens when we have too many programmers? Should coding classes be dropped from the system?

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#68

Post by dasil003 »

coldtea wrote: post #52
patrickaljord wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, this is a real low for HN. Are you actually saying that the only thing computing has done for the world is better porn delivery and better commerce? Wow. Do you have any idea how we managed to decode our genome so fast? Any idea that every science labs including maths have computers to test their hypothesis and solve their equations at such a huge scale and speed no human being could possibly dream to match? How…

> Ok, this is a real low for HN. Are you actually saying that the only thing computing has done for the world is better porn delivery and better commerce? Wow. Do you have any idea how we managed to decode our genome so fast? Any idea that every science labs including maths have computers to test their hypothesis and solve their equations at such a huge scale and speed no human being could possibly dream to match? Ho…

It's all been pretty boring since the harnessing of fire.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#70

Post by gambiting »

StavrosK wrote: post #55
gambiting wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you just said is simply not true. Programming does teach you all 3 things that you mentioned.

How on earth does programming teach you biases?

Heuristic algorithms are pretty much exclusively about biases.
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