Live data from Hacker News

Teach kids to farm, not code.

kimburgess.info

21–30 of 170 posts

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#21

I don't understand. We've spent thousands of years, using 99.9% of able-bodied people for farming, hunting or some other food-gathering activities. Only selected few could afford to NOT work in farming. Even America, just 200 years ago had 90% of its population working as farmers. Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Sure, the food industry is not always honest,not always as good as…

"Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? "

Because most of them have no idea just how grim the life of a subsistence peasant farmer really is, and how that differs from the lucky few who get to sell boutique "organic" produce to rich people.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#22
Yeah, coding (especially bad coding) is easy, and requires almost no knowledge, whereas programming is a completely different discipline, which requires a lot (really a lot) of knowledge, especially programming of systems.

Programming begins with understanding of how computers work, what is an architecture, an instruction set, size of registers, etc. Look at that MIT Scheme source. They have macroses - 32bit word - well, use few bits as a tag, and rest as a value. 64 bit word - this for a tag part, this for value. This is an example of programming.

When people "program" VMs - it is just coding. Piling up stuff without understanding. VMs were marketed for those who don't want to understand or even think. Ask those "programmers" to describe the behavior of the system in which their code supposed to work - I dunno, lol, JVM is the best VM, you know.

Programming is about understanding how your data are represented, what are the access patterns, when memory is allocated, are there any mutations? concurrent access? how conflicts were resolved, if any, etc. It is about realizing that there is an OS, which manages your memory, switches contexts, does I/O, manages your stupid threads, and has another thousand processes running at the same time, sharing the same resources. Then, perhaps, programmer will think more about the data and access patterns, which is the essence of programming.

It almost doesn't matter which language to use. Good programming has been done in C (nginx, Plan9, lisp kernels) and Lisp (Open Genera - the whole OS) etc. You can program using ideas form FP in assembly or C - there is no problem with that.

The questions coders never asking is like why on earch a web-site must be represented as a huge hierarchy of objects inside a stupid VM, while it is bunch of files and some templating? Why to do simple map/reduce jobs we need hundreds megabytes of jars and gigabytes of memory, while the same task could be implemented more efficiently even in shell scripts?

The answers, unfortunately, has nothing to do with programming. It is about making money by coders and managers.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#23
post #19

I don't understand. We've spent thousands of years, using 99.9% of able-bodied people for farming, hunting or some other food-gathering activities. Only selected few could afford to NOT work in farming. Even America, just 200 years ago had 90% of its population working as farmers. Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Sure, the food industry is not always honest,not always as good as…

I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives. Coding only makes you better micro managers, "thinking of efficient ways to make idiots do things you like". Also teaching agriculture or other physical goods producing craftsmanship to kids would make them better at real world challenges. Modern society seems to be run by digital…

"Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives."

Yes,but not for kids. You won't teach any of these subjects to kids, even if they are better for logical thinking. But if you show them an interesting way to start programming,they will see a very clear connection between what is being said and what happens = logic. Then it can be extended later in life, but this article specifically targets kids.

And I have the exact opposite view to yours - I think there is not enough logic in our lives. Our society might be addicted to digital works, but it does not mean they understand how it all works.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#24
post #18

What will the problems of the next generation be, and how do we prepare them for that? On the face of it the next few generations face huge issues. The only thing we know for certain is that the way we live now is totally unsustainable in the long run, and that new solutions will need to be found to old and unglamorous problems. More localised food production might be one way to help them through what looks like a tu…

"The only thing we know for certain is that the way we live now is totally unsustainable in the long run"

We "know" this how, exactly? Malthus was saying the same thing in 1798. Paul Ehrlich was saying the same thing in 1968.

They were both dead wrong.

"The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970's and 1980's hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now."

"Hundreds of millions of people will soon perish in smog disasters in New York and Los Angeles...the oceans will die of DDT poisoning by 1979...the U.S. life expectancy will drop to 42 years by 1980 due to cancer epidemics."

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#25

"Why are [...] farmers are regarded with such distain [...]?" They are? I haven't seen people feel that way, so I'm kind of surprised to read this. Some references to evidence that supports this claim might be useful.

Same with "Why are programmers granted such high status...". I was not aware that programmers had a particularly high social status.

http://www.forbes.com/2006/07/28/leadership-careers-jobs-cx_...

Farmer and engineer are about the same, with farmer having a slight edge.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#26

I don't understand. We've spent thousands of years, using 99.9% of able-bodied people for farming, hunting or some other food-gathering activities. Only selected few could afford to NOT work in farming. Even America, just 200 years ago had 90% of its population working as farmers. Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Sure, the food industry is not always honest,not always as good as…

"Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? " Because most of them have no idea just how grim the life of a subsistence peasant farmer really is, and how that differs from the lucky few who get to sell boutique "organic" produce to rich people.

"Because most of them have no idea just how grim the life of a subsistence peasant farmer is"

You could say the same about oil rig workers or coal miners and they are going to use both coal and oil when they grow up. Should we teach kids how to do these professions too? Where should we stop? There's many "grim" professions, things that need to be done in life, yet school kids are usually shown none of them. So what?

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#27
I divide my days into coding and planting seeds+farming, and i like very much both tasks. My opinion is that there is a bandwidth for everything, but kids should follow their passions and do what they love best.

When i'll be a parent i'll teach them this because it's lovely, and that ! oh but this skill is amazing also ! There is bandwidth for most everything but above all your kids will copy you and see what you love and probably get inspired to follow their own path.

So teach them to do what they love and love what they do ! and teach them to feel happy above all. But teach them by being that example yourself !

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#28
post #19

I don't understand. We've spent thousands of years, using 99.9% of able-bodied people for farming, hunting or some other food-gathering activities. Only selected few could afford to NOT work in farming. Even America, just 200 years ago had 90% of its population working as farmers. Why such a desperate trend to make everyone grow their own food again? Sure, the food industry is not always honest,not always as good as…

I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives. Coding only makes you better micro managers, "thinking of efficient ways to make idiots do things you like". Also teaching agriculture or other physical goods producing craftsmanship to kids would make them better at real world challenges. Modern society seems to be run by digital…

> I don't believe computer programing is a good way to teach logical thinking. Sociology, Philosophy and Literature are better alternatives

That makes no sense. I've taken literature, I've read hundreds of books on my own. Most of them are full of illogical things. At best they are OK to teach morals, not logic.

Philosophy is closer.

Computer programming is pretty much pure logic and problem solving.

The only better way to teach logic is to teach logic.

> teaching agriculture or other physical goods producing craftsmanship to kids would make them better at real world challenges

Computers and code are real world, and they solve real world challenges.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#29
I think the real takeaway from this is good programmers code, great programmers solve problems. Writing computer code is the means to the end, not the end itself. So we need to learn something else to go along with it. It could be farming. It could be business or finance. It could be sports and fitness. Preferably different people will fall into different categories.

The analogy isn't perfect, but think of learning to code in the classical education trivium. The grammar stage consists of learning languages and syntax and what different types of programs you can build. The logic stage is using that information to build working software. The rhetoric stage is learning what types of programs to build.

Re: Teach kids to farm, not code.

#30
Brilliant post! Props for the RHoK link too.

I'm currently an A Level student in the UK that's been hacking on software and hardware projects for the last 6-7 years. I decided to go to the June RHoK event in Southampton and worked on a new project called WaterMe with 4 others that takes open satellite imagery from NASA and outputs an index of water content and foliage and more in the area over time from a user friendly interface. Also making available the data for researchers and hackers for other awesome projects.

After the Hackathon we were accepted into a humanitarian incubator called GWOB (Geeks Without Bounds) which has put our team in contact with many spectacular personalities and guidance which has intorduced me into areas of mapping, open data, funding, advertising, additional technologies and even quad-copters/balloons/flying-machines.

We are still developing the product (now closed source) and are hoping to look for investment in the near future to run the product at scale to provide for farmers, researchers and anyone interested in things such as drought and glaciers amongst others.

Needless to say this has one of the best experiences of my life so far and is way more rewarding than any freelance work I've done as just make money jobs.

Post reply on HN