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Vim users: stop using hjkl

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Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl

#161

Post by lutusp »

nsmartt wrote: post #143
lutusp wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is a mouse more efficient than an ability to move to a phrase with a bit of typing, skip words ahead with a single letter instead of ctrl + shift, move to a new line and a specific place on that line with a couple of button presses, etc? I can't improve on your explanation as the answer to your own question. Obviously using a mouse to cut/copy and paste, within the same document or between independent documents…

Moving my hand over to the mouse, moving the mouse cursor to wherever I need, selecting that text and dragging while my editor slowly scrolls with my cursor when I could use a few key sequences with no context switch is the opposite of efficient. edit: wording

Pro tip: don't downvote a correspondent from whom you also expect a reply.

Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl

#162

Post by nsmartt »

lutusp wrote: post #161
nsmartt wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving my hand over to the mouse, moving the mouse cursor to wherever I need, selecting that text and dragging while my editor slowly scrolls with my cursor when I could use a few key sequences with no context switch is the opposite of efficient. edit: wording

Pro tip: don't downvote a correspondent from whom you also expect a reply.

If you check my profile, you'll see that I have less than 500 karma and therefore could not have downvoted you.

edit: wording/lower verbosity

edit: typo

Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl

#163

Post by WildUtah »

robomartin wrote: post #142
ken_railey wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your point is that because you may take breaks during the day, you shouldn't bother taking the time to learn sharp, efficient tools? There are plenty of legitimate gripes to be made about vim, but you really should consider taking the time to learn a serious programmers editor like Vim or Emacs. That would at least help you avoid looking like a fool by ranting about things you clearly don't understand. You may eve…

> That would at least help you avoid looking like a fool by ranting about things you clearly don't understand. Let's talk about being a fool and talking about things I don't understand. I have started (and self-funded) at more than three technology businesses in my life. I am in the process of starting two more. In all cases these businesses started in my garage (one actually in my closet, before I had a garage) and…

I have started (and self-funded) at more than three technology businesses in my life. I am in the process of starting two more.

Wow, it's sad that parent never learned how to use a real text editor. Can you imagine how much more he could have contributed to the world if only he hadn't been held back by bugs, delays, and quality problems inflicted by bad tools? If only some stubborn people would invest a little time in learning vi or EMACS, the world could have so much more productivity from people like that.

Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl

#164

Post by robomartin »

debt wrote: post #158
ramblerman wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a vicious and sad rant. you've boiled the whole argument down into whether a text editor is the pillar upon which a successful product is built. Well of course not! Nobody is even claiming that. Some people are merely expressing it allows them to put thought onto paper a little quicker, or that they just enjoy it. Others just enjoy being able to tweak their editor, it's a fun meta activity for any programmer. It…

I think he's encouraging people to focus on more pressing problems. I think he's angry because there is a silly and opinionated subculture surrounding a text editor. He exploded likely because this article - while innocent as it may be - broke the camel's back. For a site so focused on the hacker mantra of getting things done, one might think he's right in his anger, as a text editor usually is just about the lowest…

BINGO! Thanks for understanding.

I went to a startup pitch event the other day. VC's on the panel were asking the entrepreneurs the usual cadre of tough financial questions. Questions like: "How are you going to spend the time and money once you get funded?".

What do you think would happen if someone said something like this?

"I am going to take a month or two to learn and get really good at vim because I keep reading on HN that it takes too long to reach for the cursor keys. Then I'll start building the product you will be investing money on."

I don't know about that panel. If I was on the panel the lightest kick would land the would-be entrepreneur on the moon without a rocket.

Not important. Not significant. A complete and utter waste of time, focus and mental resources.

Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl

#165

Post by robomartin »

avenger123 wrote: post #155
robomartin wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll tell you when and why I use vim and how I can justify its useage: Linux servers. I use vim on my servers to edit everything. Why? Because I know it's there and I don't have to install anything. And, even though I think it's a horrible UI that could only be justified in an era with keyboards that barely had characters and numbers, I use it. A religious attachment to vim? No friggin way. No editor has ever caused…

I agree with the usefulness of Vim on Linux servers. I would say that everyone is different in how they approach their work and in the case of software development, the tools they use. I wouldn't consider it funny that someone would want to optimize a very important tool to make it more functional. The tools we use for software development are both a curse and a blessing. A curse that there is no ONE TRUE WAY of doin…

Yours is an absolutely reasonable non-fanatical position on this topic. No issues whatsoever.

My blood pressure goes up when people start to get religious about this stuff. Some go as far as proposing that one can only be a professional programmer if one uses vim, which is utter nonsense.

Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl

#166

Post by robomartin »

walkon wrote: post #147
robomartin wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this slight difference can have the major effect of helping the editor "get out of the way" and just let you make the changes a bit more proficiently I have never, in THIRTY years of designing hardware and writing software, been slowed down by a text editor of nearly any kind (other than the first time I used VI). And, yes, I can use vi and vim. And yes, I think it is total horse-shit. The things that have slowed m…

You are mostly missing my point, which has nothing to do with vim use magically making what you code perfect. Not sure why you are trying to say that is what we are positing. All I said was that it takes some of the mechanics of modifying text out of the way making editing a bit more efficient in that regard (once you become proficient). You can still efficiently code crap, of course. Who is saying otherwise?

There's a religious element in the "cult of vim" that proposes that one is not a professional programmer unless one joins the cult and becomes proficient at vim. This is followed by implications of code quality and capabilities. None of it, of course, is true. I am not and don't think I attributed any of this to you. If I did, I apologize.

Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl

#167

Post by robomartin »

WildUtah wrote: post #163
robomartin wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That would at least help you avoid looking like a fool by ranting about things you clearly don't understand. Let's talk about being a fool and talking about things I don't understand. I have started (and self-funded) at more than three technology businesses in my life. I am in the process of starting two more. In all cases these businesses started in my garage (one actually in my closet, before I had a garage) and…

I have started (and self-funded) at more than three technology businesses in my life. I am in the process of starting two more. Wow, it's sad that parent never learned how to use a real text editor. Can you imagine how much more he could have contributed to the world if only he hadn't been held back by bugs, delays, and quality problems inflicted by bad tools? If only some stubborn people would invest a little time i…

Comedian?

Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl

#168

Post by nsmartt »

Shorel wrote: post #136
nsmartt wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shift + page down allows you to select entire pages of text, cut it, and move it to whatever other position. It's also probably faster given that autoscrolling moves at a slower speed than page down.

Put the cursor at the start of the desired selection. Move the window with the scrollbar (faster than anything else, actually), then shift click at the end of the desired selection. Bam! Just as fast if not faster.

Sure, but now you're utilizing the keyboard and mouse together, and, as you said, it isn't necessarily faster. That's an argument for sticking to the mouse. It's mostly justification. It isn't an argument in favor of consistently preferring the mouse to the keyboard.

Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl

#169

Post by Shorel »

JulianWasTaken wrote: post #154
Shorel wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the operation involved there is not one you can do in-stride or with as few keys in any other "modern" editor SublimeText2: Ctrl-Delete: deletes the rest of the current word.

That's not the operation from the question in the link (not that I'd be terribly surprised if Sublime Text had a way to do it anyways, but it's not as fluid as vim).

My bad.

To fix my blunder:

Delete rest of the current word (and go to insert mode when applicable)

Vim: ce -> ST2: Ctrl+Delete

Delete current word (and go to insert mode when applicable)

Vim: caw -> ST2: Ctrl+D, Delete

Re: Vim users: stop using hjkl

#170

Post by brodney »

lutusp wrote: post #111
brodney wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is using text find to move to where you want "tricking" the program? With Easy Motion that type of cursor movement becomes even easier. Using a mouse just slows a vim/emacs user down.

> How is using text find to move to where you want "tricking" the program? It's a trick because it uses one function (locating text) to accomplish another (navigation). Modern editors don't need to be tricked into cooperating with their users. > With Easy Motion that type of cursor movement becomes even easier. Ah, an add-on tool to get around vim's built-in inefficiencies. Guess why modern editors don't need Easy Mo…

Do you get upset when someone uses a flat head screwdriver to open a paint can? Surely that was not its intended use, but tools can be used to accomplish a larger set of tasks than the original itch they scratched.
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