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Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

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Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#101

Post by base698 »

zwegner wrote: post #66
michaelochurch wrote: post #4

The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Still, if there's such a shortage of good programmers (and I agree that there probably is) then why aren't we playing this to our advantage? A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York, and our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way. Most o…

> The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Conversely, you don't need to be a decent programmer to get a CS degree. It's a shame that in the age of the internet and self-directed learning, degrees are so heavily weighted in the job market.

And yet all of the glorious self learners can't describe when to use a hashmap, what a hash is, or even the difference between a list and set...

I'm not talking even knowing the algorithms, I mean a guy that writes list.contains(condition) in a loop and it brings the server to a halt because every call to contains runs through the entire list, when a hashset.contains(condition) would run in milliseconds.

* no I did not go to a top tier school and only have a CS Minor, but I did read the books to make sure I didn't have gaps in my knowledge. It's just rare in my experience to find people that know the basics who also claim they were self-taught. People get all pissed off if you ask them what a HashMap is, which should be the most basic thing in programming.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#102

Post by jschulenklopper »

mich41 wrote: post #40

School courses will do nothing if people don't have access to programmable computers. And they don't have - Windows doesn't ship with Visual Studio, OSX and Linux are irrelevant, iOS and Android don't come with SDK CDs and demos. Now, of course, you know that these tools exist, and I know too. But most people don't and to them programming simply doesn't exist. Teaching these people quicksort in school won't be of muc…

> School courses will do nothing if people don't have access to programmable computers. And they don't have [...]

Well, that's almost solved with the Raspberry Pi: a fully programmable computer for just $40. It used to be a lot more expensive to give a child access to a computer that (s)he could program and tinker with...

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#103

Post by dreamdu5t »

aashaykumar92 wrote: post #86
duaneb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. You need one to get a job, though. If not now, in twenty years when you're old in an ageist industry.

If you can learn to program on your own and become proficient in it, build great projects, and keep up to date with the languages, why does it matter what major you are? Granted I'm 20 and still in school, but just being a CS major doesn't make someone a great programmer. I like to think that employers care about projects you've worked on as that is the best way to see a true programmers talents.

Just realize that if you don't get a degree, you will always battle people who feel threatened by you. School becomes a core part of most people's identity, and they can be very protective of it in passive aggressive ways. People are told from a young age that people who didn't attend school are uneducated. At least that's been the case with me. I have a great career and no degree, and it's something I deal with constantly.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#104

Post by [deleted] »

base698 wrote: post #101
zwegner wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Conversely, you don't need to be a decent programmer to get a CS degree. It's a shame that in the age of the internet and self-directed learning, degrees are so heavily weighted in the job market.

And yet all of the glorious self learners can't describe when to use a hashmap, what a hash is, or even the difference between a list and set... I'm not talking even knowing the algorithms, I mean a guy that writes list.contains(condition) in a loop and it brings the server to a halt because every call to contains runs through the entire list, when a hashset.contains(condition) would run in milliseconds. * no I did n…

[deleted]

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#105

Post by dreamdu5t »

base698 wrote: post #101
zwegner wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Conversely, you don't need to be a decent programmer to get a CS degree. It's a shame that in the age of the internet and self-directed learning, degrees are so heavily weighted in the job market.

And yet all of the glorious self learners can't describe when to use a hashmap, what a hash is, or even the difference between a list and set... I'm not talking even knowing the algorithms, I mean a guy that writes list.contains(condition) in a loop and it brings the server to a halt because every call to contains runs through the entire list, when a hashset.contains(condition) would run in milliseconds. * no I did n…

Sounds like someone from Stanford.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#106

Post by zwegner »

aashaykumar92 wrote: post #86
duaneb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. You need one to get a job, though. If not now, in twenty years when you're old in an ageist industry.

If you can learn to program on your own and become proficient in it, build great projects, and keep up to date with the languages, why does it matter what major you are? Granted I'm 20 and still in school, but just being a CS major doesn't make someone a great programmer. I like to think that employers care about projects you've worked on as that is the best way to see a true programmers talents.

But degrees are a very strong indicator to most companies that you will do what you're told, have good "work ethic", etc.

I dropped out of college because I was learning very little, at a slow pace, and mostly in areas not related to my major. I love to learn and work on interesting projects, but I've never been the type to do things just because an employer/school/society expects me to. And I've definitely had to pay for it in many ways...

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#107

Post by hkmurakami »

chaz wrote: post #92
wes-exp wrote: post #33

Personally I think the world is drunk with "code fever". We are creatures of overreaction. Not too long ago it was "no one learn to code! it's all going to be outsourced to India!" Now, "I'm starting a non-profit to spread the gift of coding to children. Coding is our future". Give me a f-ing break.

I'm still all for it. Coding is a lot more than just filling jobs. It opens the door to critical thinking, breaking down complex problems into simple ones, separating correlation and causality, and differentiating between data vs anecdotes. It's essentially applied STEM education, but with very practical, tangible outcomes in equipment that nearly everyone will have access to. I can't think of a faster, more accessib…

It is also a very affordable and quick way to "build stuff", which is one of the strongest ways for children/adolescents to get excited about their "work"

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#108

Post by zwegner »

base698 wrote: post #101
zwegner wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Conversely, you don't need to be a decent programmer to get a CS degree. It's a shame that in the age of the internet and self-directed learning, degrees are so heavily weighted in the job market.

And yet all of the glorious self learners can't describe when to use a hashmap, what a hash is, or even the difference between a list and set... I'm not talking even knowing the algorithms, I mean a guy that writes list.contains(condition) in a loop and it brings the server to a halt because every call to contains runs through the entire list, when a hashset.contains(condition) would run in milliseconds. * no I did n…

Yawn. I would say the same about the glorious PhD professors that attempted to teach me. Even the best professors, who were actually pretty knowledgeable, would never really code at all, pushing that off to the grad students.

Some people just don't fit into the way academia works, and making silly judgments like yours about them does nothing but entrench the status quo.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#109

Post by lotso »

duaneb wrote: post #84
michaelochurch wrote: post #4

The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Still, if there's such a shortage of good programmers (and I agree that there probably is) then why aren't we playing this to our advantage? A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York, and our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way. Most o…

> You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. You need one to get a job, though. If not now, in twenty years when you're old in an ageist industry.

There are more programming/CS jobs every year than graduating CS majors.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#110

Post by ditonal »

michaelochurch wrote: post #4

The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Still, if there's such a shortage of good programmers (and I agree that there probably is) then why aren't we playing this to our advantage? A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York, and our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way. Most o…

Can you explain to me what actual evidence there is that there's a shortage of good programmers? Good programmers still make less money than a good doctor or lawyer, indicating that those are even shorter in supply. Surely addressing that shortage would be a higher priority? Lots of people could use more legal services if the price was lower, and yet if someone wanted to hire a Harvard lawyer for $60k a year, we wouldn't even seriously consider it, but when someone wants an MIT programmer for $60k a year we consider it a job opening and thus a 'shortage.' Thus I find the 'job openings' a ridiculous metric of supply and demand, and I would use the metric people have always used - the market price. Using this more reasonable metric, there are careers with much more severe shortages of talent. As usual, nobody is surprised that those heavily invested in hiring programmers want a larger supply to drive down market wages.
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