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Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

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Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#81

Post by mich41 »

vellum wrote: post #47
mich41 wrote: post #40

School courses will do nothing if people don't have access to programmable computers. And they don't have - Windows doesn't ship with Visual Studio, OSX and Linux are irrelevant, iOS and Android don't come with SDK CDs and demos. Now, of course, you know that these tools exist, and I know too. But most people don't and to them programming simply doesn't exist. Teaching these people quicksort in school won't be of muc…

I don't see how this is an issue. Day 1: Learn how to setup the language on your computer. A lot of books, like Learn Python the Hard Way, make this the first step.

I think I slightly misstated my point. The problem isn't really about lack of programming tools, but lack of programming as a concept.

You are given a black box which does some stuff, but you have no idea how it does this stuff or how to make it do something else. You don't even know that it would be relatively easy with a decent IDE.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#82

Post by paranoiacblack »

kayoone wrote: post #18

I get the message and it certainly makes sense for alot of people to be able to code, but on the other hand i know so many (also smart) people that hate any job that would involve using a computer for more than communication. Not everyone wants to sit in front of a screen all day, and imo thats a good thing.

Well, you have to consider that this is due to their exposure to computers in the past. Common users often see computers as this buggy device that sometimes feeds them their emails or allows them to catch up with friends on facebook. Others familiarize it with a tool that makes people antisocial or destroys interpersonal communication because of all of the possible distractions. And even then others think that computers can only do what they make them do on the job and they hate their job.

I'd imagine that if they stopped looking at their computing device in those eyes and were able to truly express their creativity, their viewpoint would change. Programming is not about "[sitting] in front of a screen all day." That's a misunderstanding. Programming is about taking control of your computer for fun, fame, and fortune. It just so happens that our only way of doing that is by sitting down in front of the damn thing, currently.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#83

Post by lifeisstillgood »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #69
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But everyone learning to drive is / was. Being a car driver is python coding. Being a car mechanic is probably on the order of writing a compiler. The analogies will always break down but really, in this day and age, an adult in the Western world who cannot drive is socially and econmoically disadvantaged. ( chooses not to is likely a different thing - for half of 20 years in London I had no car and biked / tubed eve…

>> "But everyone learning to drive is / was. Being a car driver is python coding. Being a car mechanic is probably on the order of writing a compiler." I think being a car driver is more equal to being a competent computer user not a python programmer.

Really? Driving a car is hard... lives depend on it, it requires judgement and constant attention to details. That we have mostly got it down to our sub-concious does not change that.

"competant" computer users who do not code basically send email and write word docs. Thats the level of putting on a seat belt, or working out how to turn on the air-con.

We can argue about the analoigy for a long time, but pretty much anyone can be taught to code a simple dynamic web site. Children learn Logo - thats Lisp basically.

Anyone can code - just teach them young enough.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#84

Post by duaneb »

michaelochurch wrote: post #4

The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Still, if there's such a shortage of good programmers (and I agree that there probably is) then why aren't we playing this to our advantage? A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York, and our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way. Most o…

> You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer.

You need one to get a job, though. If not now, in twenty years when you're old in an ageist industry.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#85

Post by kenrikm »

igorgue wrote: post #70
wes-exp wrote: post #33

Personally I think the world is drunk with "code fever". We are creatures of overreaction. Not too long ago it was "no one learn to code! it's all going to be outsourced to India!" Now, "I'm starting a non-profit to spread the gift of coding to children. Coding is our future". Give me a f-ing break.

What's "the world" for you? The bay area? Cause' I wish people would like to learn how to code where I live (Miami, FL).

I moved from Miami to the Bay Area because of that exact reason. Miami is more or less dead as far as the coding/startup community goes. To bad since it's about 1/3rd the cost to live there.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#86

Post by aashaykumar92 »

duaneb wrote: post #84
michaelochurch wrote: post #4

The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Still, if there's such a shortage of good programmers (and I agree that there probably is) then why aren't we playing this to our advantage? A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York, and our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way. Most o…

> You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. You need one to get a job, though. If not now, in twenty years when you're old in an ageist industry.

If you can learn to program on your own and become proficient in it, build great projects, and keep up to date with the languages, why does it matter what major you are?

Granted I'm 20 and still in school, but just being a CS major doesn't make someone a great programmer. I like to think that employers care about projects you've worked on as that is the best way to see a true programmers talents.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#87

Post by _alex4nder »

duaneb wrote: post #84
michaelochurch wrote: post #4

The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Still, if there's such a shortage of good programmers (and I agree that there probably is) then why aren't we playing this to our advantage? A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York, and our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way. Most o…

> You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. You need one to get a job, though. If not now, in twenty years when you're old in an ageist industry.

Thankfully you won't need one to start a company, and hire all of your CS-degree-less old decent programming friends.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#88

Post by sixothree »

duaneb wrote: post #84
michaelochurch wrote: post #4

The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Still, if there's such a shortage of good programmers (and I agree that there probably is) then why aren't we playing this to our advantage? A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York, and our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way. Most o…

> You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. You need one to get a job, though. If not now, in twenty years when you're old in an ageist industry.

Or when you find yourself in a new city outside of you network of contacts.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#89

Post by lifeisstillgood »

michaelochurch wrote: post #4

The gap between CS majors and software jobs is misleading. You don't need a CS degree to become a decent programmer. Still, if there's such a shortage of good programmers (and I agree that there probably is) then why aren't we playing this to our advantage? A senior engineer can't afford a house in the Bay Area or New York, and our status is low-- we still work for managers; we're a defeated tribe in this way. Most o…

Fred George is interesting on this - see Programmer Anarchy. My view (and yes I am working up a blog post) is

1. Coding is the equivalent of literacy after 1451 (Gutenberg).

2. in say, one generation, any company not having literate people at all levels of the organisation, and not having then changed how they work at a fundamental level to take advantage of these programmers/business people will be at as severe a compettive dis-advantage; similar to trading company in 1600 where no-one at the top could read or write.

3. If you think that's a bit of a stretch, or say "yeah but there were loads of illiterate people on trading ships" - but the people at the top, the captains, the investors, could all read and write. So they could exchange information globally and accurately. Share a model of the market effectively.

4. So, the successful companies in a generation will have coding in their DNA. And to get there from today, companies will benefit most from hiring great coders and teaching them how to be CEOs, how to be Salespeople, how to be accountants. And letting them run the company as CEOs, and accountants do now. Let me repeat - hire people who can code and teach them to be CEOs. They will find ways to run the company with coding at its core.

5. In short programmer anarchy / autonomy is the right way forward. The advantages of running a company through code is so great (comparable to running a company through writing) that all other skills come second. They are necessary but software eats them. For a generation only.

Takebacks: I am guessing that the econmoic advantages of code-literate population is a diminishing return compared to a text-literatate population. say 50%? Thats still phenonemonal.

Re: Zuck, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey In Short Film To Inspire Kids To Learn How To Code

#90

Post by paranoiacblack »

TheAnimus wrote: post #79
paranoiacblack wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I basically came here to say this. Often HN is frequented by those who are go to top CS schools, but I do not think they are in the majority of most CS schools. It is really possible to escape a university with a BS and MS without knowing how to develop and learn beyond your scope of knowledge. At our university, for example, we are supposedly taught C++, but I still find myself having to explain basics like STL Cont…

Another problem is that CS is often very, ahem, academic. In the UK, we have the British Computer Society (BCS) who give accreditation. If your doing a CS corse without BCS accreditation everyone knows it will be a bit suspect. However, the BCS you've probably never heard of, they aren't exactly at the forefront of anything, they are also quite stuck in the past. In a world where dynamic or at the very least JIT'd la…

I really do agree with your point, but it sounds like an excuse from academia. I can assure you that many students, when starting in their Freshman year in college, expect to be able to build the cool things they want to build or be competitive in the job after their 4 or 5 year stay is over. However, as you state, it is not necessarily the case and the problem is with the archaic nature of academia. Yet, you don't learn the things that many would define as essential knowledge in current technology.

In my university, for example, I have not once ever heard about design patterns or ever seen different coding paradigms other than OOP. What I've learned is how to solve trivial or nuanced problems in poor ways in languages not really suited for it. In job interviews, I've only passed through because of things I've personally self-taught myself due to projects I've worked on. So what's the point of an education if you have to teach yourself most things?

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