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Bullying has to stop, now.

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Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#81

Post by ErrantX »

anonymous wrote: post #63
polymatter wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, as a teacher you come into the classroom and the normally shy kid with glasses is standing there angrily over the popular, loud, boisterous kid who looks shocked. Do you really need to call NCIS? I don't think its unreasonable to suggest you know exactly whats going on here. (hint: the shy kid probably did not suddenly decide right this moment to pop up and decide to fight for alpha status)

Yes, to you it is obvious, but not to the teacher. The teacher was her/himself the popular kid in school and cannot comprehend what shy even means. She/he doesn't see a bully and a kid who couldn't take it anymore, she/he sees a respectable well-adjusted upstanding kid well on her/his way to being a respectable well-adjusted successful adult and a psycho holding a chair.

That doesn't make sense. I was the kid with the chair; top of the class, got on really well with most of the teachers, mum was a school governor, history of being bullied...

The teacher(s) new exactly what had happened. The administration didn't, though, and it was them that threatened to suspend me.

They did account for the circumstances; they brought in the bullies parents and all of us sat around a table to discuss it. But he squirmed out of it ("so sorry! Only a bit of fun", etc.).

The problem is; it's only when the bullied person does something extreme that the bully gets into that situation. And it didn't happen often, so this particular individual had lots of "last warnings" and final promises to be nicer.

But no one followed up and punished him properly the next time.

Teachers are there to educate, they aren't equipped properly to deal with a point of justice/behaviour.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#82

Post by ErrantX »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #53
brador wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence. Bullies are very careful to cover their tracks, they know the limits of the system, verbal bullying is usually ignored as is physical intimidation. And then it's one kids word against the others + one kid holding a chair. With the above, a reasonable adult, considering evidence, has no choice but to "arrest" the kid with the chair, since the other has done no wrong other than verbal + possible pushing. The…

Expel the bullies, force them out of the system. The government has an obligation to educate children, it does not have an obligation to educate bullies. If your child is a bully then you, as a parent, need to fix that if you want them to be able to be educated.

That doesn't seem fair either to me. I mean, perhaps I am a sap, but I feel sorry for bullies as well. Usually what drives them is deep seated emotional problems of their own; and by pushing them out of the system all you do is create adult bullies, and probably offenders.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#83

Post by ErrantX »

prawks wrote: post #78
polymatter wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, what scares you about ability-based classes? The single strongest motivator for me to do well at school was to get into the top set which was free from bullies.

I would say both that how "ability" is measured, as well as that a 5-year-old's ability is nowhere near an indicator of their future ability. I doubt anyone could argue against things like AP classes, etc. in high school, but 5-year-olds?

Indeed. Education is only one part of the personal development you get at school. Socialising/communicating with your peers is another key thing.

Which is why so many "proteges" tend to burn out, I think, or have emotional problems as they age - simply for lacking that time to develop with their peers.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#84

Post by Mz »

jasonwocky wrote: post #79
Mz wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing we can do is provide more and better societal support for families/parents. My older son was usually the smallest kid in class. He tended to attract bullies. In one case, I learned a little about the situation. The bully's parents were divorcing and he was apparently going through hell at home. Bullies are most likely a product of a negative social environment themselves and coping as best they can. The oth…

That was a good blog post. I largely have the same policy with my daughters, but your post inspires me to consider applying it more strictly. Thanks.

I'm really glad to hear that.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#85

Post by Nursie »

moron4hire wrote: post #48
barry-cotter wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what can we do? Kids will be kids, eh? End age based classes would be a good start.

And mandatory attendance. You can't force someone to learn when they don't want to. Stop treating schools like prisons and the attendees will stop acting like inmates.

School is a combination of daycare and training.

We make it mandatory because otherwise the kids of the disadvantaged, the uneducated or the just-plain-disorganised wouldn't get a decent start in life. It also allows more people to work - someone else is looking after the kids.

There's some argument to be had about what age it should be mandatory until, sure, but mandatory schooling is most definitely a good thing for society.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#87

Post by enoonyllaer »

cathustler wrote: post #77
jbrooksuk wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids will be kids, eh? Alongside the "sticks and stones rhyme" this sentence makes me tear my hair our every time I hear it. Kids who bully are thugs, not kids. My brother, he's 13, he's a kid, not a thug. He skateboards and hurts himself, plays computer games and does his homework. That is a kid. I feel or you too buddy. That whole sentence gets me really irate.

The kid with a myth of a father, and a mother who trades out her allotted food-stamps for drug money is a thug? Bullies aren't born, they're created; I have not once met a bully who had a perfect life before they decided to get angry and take it out on their peers, because, well, they don't know any better. So, yes, kids will be kids.

When I was bullied as a child, several of the bullies were children of lawyers and doctors, in well-to-do families. They were dressed well and clearly did not want for anything. It's possible that they were having some sorts of problems at home, but they certainly were not from a family such as you've described. Also, anecdotes are not data (for either of us)

Even then, if I accept "kids will be kids", it should be (and certainly is not) the purpose of a school to teach children to grow from kids to well-behaved adults. You do not teach them this by ignoring the behavior when they bully, and then punishing the bullied when they inevitably decide to strike back.

The Lord of the Flies atmosphere that exists in public schools is appalling, and we should not try to wave it off. It is clearly not "working as intended".

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#88

Post by InclinedPlane »

ErrantX wrote: post #82
InclinedPlane wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expel the bullies, force them out of the system. The government has an obligation to educate children, it does not have an obligation to educate bullies. If your child is a bully then you, as a parent, need to fix that if you want them to be able to be educated.

That doesn't seem fair either to me. I mean, perhaps I am a sap, but I feel sorry for bullies as well. Usually what drives them is deep seated emotional problems of their own; and by pushing them out of the system all you do is create adult bullies, and probably offenders.

Bullies are in need of solutions too, but that is no excuse to let their problems spread out and have a huge impact on other kids and on society. The same thing is true of criminals. Most criminals (even up to rape and murder) don't start out as ordinary, well adjusted folks who one day wake up and go "huh, I'm bored, guess I'll go be bad", they lead troubled lives. They have been wronged by others and by society and sometimes they express that through theft, self-medication via drug use, violence, molestation, rape, murder, etc.

We have to triage the problem. First, prevent harm from occurring to others. Second, attempt rehabilitation.

Remember that bullies also create problems in other kids which can force them to act out. Force them to drop out and get into drug use. Force them to become bullies themselves, or thieves, etc.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#89

Post by jerf »

prawks wrote: post #78
polymatter wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, what scares you about ability-based classes? The single strongest motivator for me to do well at school was to get into the top set which was free from bullies.

I would say both that how "ability" is measured, as well as that a 5-year-old's ability is nowhere near an indicator of their future ability. I doubt anyone could argue against things like AP classes, etc. in high school, but 5-year-olds?

Who's saying we want to use a 5-year-old's ability as an indicator of future ability? We want to use a 5-year-old's ability as an indicator of their current ability. I'd say we'll look at their ability again when they're six, but really the ideal is near-continuous evaluation.

Don't just think about slightly tweaking the system we have today. Think about the system after it finally embraces computers as a transformative force, instead of a very silly expensive way to issue multiple choice tests. We're going to free up teachers to spend their time on the stuff that actually requires a human, instead of bogging them down with so much automateable work that they end up hardly any more effective than a machine, what a surprise.

Re: Bullying has to stop, now.

#90

Post by Mz »

enoonyllaer wrote: post #87
cathustler wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kid with a myth of a father, and a mother who trades out her allotted food-stamps for drug money is a thug? Bullies aren't born, they're created; I have not once met a bully who had a perfect life before they decided to get angry and take it out on their peers, because, well, they don't know any better. So, yes, kids will be kids.

When I was bullied as a child, several of the bullies were children of lawyers and doctors, in well-to-do families. They were dressed well and clearly did not want for anything. It's possible that they were having some sorts of problems at home, but they certainly were not from a family such as you've described. Also, anecdotes are not data (for either of us) Even then, if I accept "kids will be kids", it should be (…

They didn't want for anything materially. Studies show that upperclass neighborhoods have as much neglect and drug addiction as the ghetto. As they say: The problem with winning the rat race is that you are still a rat.

Making it your goal to be the lord in a lord of the flies environment is like that. Good families that produce healthy kids are generally solidly middle class: They work hard enough to provide basic essentials, not so hard as to value work or money over family. Current trends make it increasingly difficult for anyone to arrange that. We increasingly make people choose between family and money. We didn't always do that.

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