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Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

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Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#51

Post by waterlesscloud »

intended wrote: post #38
gosu wrote: post #10

I actually got bored towards the end of my first game of DF because it was too easy. The interface adds a lot of illusory difficulty, but that's not an issue for people used to reading manuals. On the other hand, when you're not wrestling with the system, there's not much fair challenge. When your underground fortress is filled to the brim with traps and completely self sufficient, no one is ever going to touch you u…

I played in a similar manner, and had 0 fun after a point. Which is when the entire "losing is fun" part of the motto clicked for me. After yet more introspection I personally drew a parallel between me playing safe and how I approached many other things in life. And in this game, the result of playing things that way were directly clear - utter boredom. All I had left were mega challenges. So either I play to build…

Wait, so which direction did you go in real life?

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#52

Post by aqme28 »

alex_c wrote: post #34
Evbn wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a problem? Chess is inscrutable via trial and error too.

Not sure I agree... give me the most basic computer chess program and 15 minutes, and I'll have (most of) the rules figured out. And that's assuming no tutorials or hints such as highlighting legal moves. Getting good at it is a different matter entirely, but figuring out how to play is relatively simple.

Some of the weird-but-essential moves such as castling and en passant will not be apparent to you even after hours of playing like that.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#53

Post by Elidrake »

alex_c wrote: post #34
Evbn wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a problem? Chess is inscrutable via trial and error too.

Not sure I agree... give me the most basic computer chess program and 15 minutes, and I'll have (most of) the rules figured out. And that's assuming no tutorials or hints such as highlighting legal moves. Getting good at it is a different matter entirely, but figuring out how to play is relatively simple.

But Chess is a game that you're already familiar with - unless you're going to be changing the absolute foundation of the game with these altered rules, your familiarity with the original game is what allows you to come up with an altered set of rules.

Compare that to Dwarf Fortress, short of 'Sim City' (which is a dubious comparison at best), there is nothing out there that remotely comes close to the myriad of gameplay concepts that have been shoved into this single, mildly coherent package.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#54

Post by intended »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #51
intended wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I played in a similar manner, and had 0 fun after a point. Which is when the entire "losing is fun" part of the motto clicked for me. After yet more introspection I personally drew a parallel between me playing safe and how I approached many other things in life. And in this game, the result of playing things that way were directly clear - utter boredom. All I had left were mega challenges. So either I play to build…

Wait, so which direction did you go in real life?

I find myself trying desperately to return to utter boredom.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#55

Post by pistacchioso »

starpilot wrote: post #9

Great explanation of DF's bodily combat damage modeling: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/95316-complex-dama... > DF's damage system is just as complex and oftentimes difficult to keep track of as the rest of the game. Instead of simple health points or separate body parts DF simulates each individual by the sum of it's parts. This starts at the single parts of a body, then adds layers of tissue, muscle and…

now, this confirms my opinion that the game has been really fun to program, much more than to play. Simulating inch by inch damage is a fun thing to think, model and develop, but in the end the player gets a bunch of chars and some description that could have been well picked up randomly with no impact on the gameplay

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#58

Post by danielbarla »

intended wrote: post #38
gosu wrote: post #10

I actually got bored towards the end of my first game of DF because it was too easy. The interface adds a lot of illusory difficulty, but that's not an issue for people used to reading manuals. On the other hand, when you're not wrestling with the system, there's not much fair challenge. When your underground fortress is filled to the brim with traps and completely self sufficient, no one is ever going to touch you u…

I played in a similar manner, and had 0 fun after a point. Which is when the entire "losing is fun" part of the motto clicked for me. After yet more introspection I personally drew a parallel between me playing safe and how I approached many other things in life. And in this game, the result of playing things that way were directly clear - utter boredom. All I had left were mega challenges. So either I play to build…

I'm not sure if cage traps have been properly gimped (yet), but a year or so back they were capable of trapping dragons and similar mini-bosses. It's a real fourth-wall breaking feeling when you accidentally capture a dragon in a (presumably) tiny cage made of wood.

(I see from the wiki that under some conditions the dragon may burn through the cage, but still...)

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#59

Post by praptak »

jebblue wrote: post #35

It uses ascii symbols?

Not really ASCII. One of the 8-bit character sets that have smiley faces, border-drawing characters and similar stuff. Check it out here: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Tileset_repository

Re: Dwarf Fortress: Ten hours with the most inscrutable video game of all time

#60

Post by roryokane »

aqme28 wrote: post #52
alex_c wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I agree... give me the most basic computer chess program and 15 minutes, and I'll have (most of) the rules figured out. And that's assuming no tutorials or hints such as highlighting legal moves. Getting good at it is a different matter entirely, but figuring out how to play is relatively simple.

Some of the weird-but-essential moves such as castling and en passant will not be apparent to you even after hours of playing like that.

I definitely wouldn’t call castling and en passant “essential”. I just now played a game of chess against the computer on the lowest difficulty, and won easily without using either of those moves. And during the game, the computer itself castled, which might have helped me to learn the move if I hadn’t known it.
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