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Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

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Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#81

Post by Zak »

pixpox3 wrote: post #34
mannicken wrote: post #28

Have you paid anything yet? Don't. Drop him. Here are two good reasons to drop him: 1. You are wasting your time -- I don't think he'll give you anything, or you'll end up spending so much money that profits are unreasonable. 2. Even if he does, what guarantee is there that there is no "surprise" hidden in the code? I have seen freelancers do that when they're disappointed in the buyer. Find another guy and learn fro…

I paid him more than 2000 dollars of the fee already unfortunately. I've learnt a lot from this, specifically that even really good coders (or any professional) can be very good at what they do but still be completely unreasonable and willing to screw you.

I'm inclined to agree with most of what I've seen posted here - you probably got an unprofessional programmer who has just enough skill to get in over his head. He realized it's more work than he thought it would be, and thinks that it's your responsibility to pay him more.

Your best bet at this point is going to be to start over. Get yourself a good hacker; I bet there are a few around here looking for short-term gigs - I am, for one. If you have a decent written spec, it should be no problem for any decent programmer to give you a reasonably accurate timeline and meet the milestones. As others have said, pay by the milestone, and make sure you get the source code.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#83

Post by jodrellblank »

pixpox3 wrote: post #13
Hexstream wrote: post #11

Cut your losses. At some point you have to admit to yourself that you've been had and you won't get any kind of compensation. You're just wasting resources. Next time you'll be more apt at heeding the red flags.

I feel like I've put enough time into this (not to mention money!) that makes it very hard to do that...

You must consider the opportunity cost as well - imagine yourself three months from now. You could be three months away from this mess, well towards making your $2000 back (or better), well into a new project or the same thing with a new developer and an improved contract.

Or, you could still be arguing with this guy over code you don't have, a product he hasn't finished, and a price that's still rising (it's not going to go down), and even at best you wont trust the program or have anyone to maintain it.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#85

Post by pixpox3 »

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm not from California or even the US, so I wasn't sure about my legal options here. But I've done a little reading and the advice here has helped a lot. It's amazing how solitary you can feel doing this sort of thing! Thanks to all.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#86

Post by alnayyir »

pixpox3 wrote: post #34
mannicken wrote: post #28

Have you paid anything yet? Don't. Drop him. Here are two good reasons to drop him: 1. You are wasting your time -- I don't think he'll give you anything, or you'll end up spending so much money that profits are unreasonable. 2. Even if he does, what guarantee is there that there is no "surprise" hidden in the code? I have seen freelancers do that when they're disappointed in the buyer. Find another guy and learn fro…

I paid him more than 2000 dollars of the fee already unfortunately. I've learnt a lot from this, specifically that even really good coders (or any professional) can be very good at what they do but still be completely unreasonable and willing to screw you.

I'm a reverse engineer, but I usually work with C/C++ and .NET stuff (PE-COFF, ELF, and Mach-O). I've never done Java Swing.

I imagine it's plausible given how easy most .NET projects are to disassemble. If you contact me at my email address at (alnayyir #at# gmail dot com) I could discuss the matter further with you.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#87

Post by potatolicious »

habibur wrote: post #26
pixpox3 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate that I can't write code, he has a skill I don't have. But I hired him to do it, he agreed a price, but hes now almost a year late and despite me offering him bonuses, 10% of the profits, hes still holding me to ransom and wanting more. If I hire someone to build a house they don't get insulted when I offer them 10% of future rental yields. How can it be insulting to offer a percentage which wasn't even i…

A programmer views "a year late" as, makeing him do more work than he was contacted to do. House construction doesn't work that way. You hand over a detail plan diagram and the contructor develops exactly that. One doesn't break down half the house after it's 80% done to build it a different way and check how it looks. Though that happens frequently in software development. Most probably than not, this programmer can…

To add to this: I recently finished a small contract that I took on for the sake of family (don't do this, by the way). As a general rule I don't take contracts from people who don't know how to program, for the following reasons:

- They don't know how to write a specification. It's like asking a non-architect to draw you blueprints to a house. You end up with things like "there should be an arch here that's... um... about this tall".

- They don't actually know what they want 80% of the time. They will tell you (and you will document if you're smart) how they want it built, and when they see exactly that they will turn around and want it another way.

- They have absolutely no appreciation for how much work you're actually putting in. "But it's just a button on a page!". It's often insulting to work with people like this.

The spec for my contract changed constantly, and in the end took twice as long as I had anticipated.

And I still haven't gotten paid.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#88

Post by potatolicious »

scorpioxy wrote: post #64
dkubb wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$2500 for 50 hours of work works out to $50 p/hour. I don't know what the fair market rate is for freelance client side app dev, but that sounds a bit low. Most web designers I know bill higher than that. For $50 an hour I'd either expect the developer to be really junior, or experienced but totally unaware of their own value. Also, I agree that providing a percentage of the possible profits is not a very good motiva…

Offtopic but seriously? $50/hr is low? I've had people tell me that my rate is too high when i was charging $20/hr. I find that a lot of people treat freelancers with a lot of prejudice because of their geographical location.. To the OP. The programmer is black-mailing you. That never ends well. If you can, just scratch the project and start over.

$20/hr is high? I'm sorry, but you're working for the wrong people. There will always be people who want you to make them a full-featured website with forums and interactive crap for $500. Ignore these people - ignore anyone who doesn't know how much your work is worth. Working with them is just asking for trouble.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#89

Post by chris11 »

pixpox3 wrote: post #12
vaksel wrote: post #7

Simple...sue him. Dude I'm in your exact situation...hired someone to do a project, and he is now a year late. I gave the guy concession after concession just to get him to finish...hell I cut about 70% of the features just to have him finish quicker. And told him...as long as he finish quickly I'd waive the late fees. You can't work with these people...even after all my concessions the guy still gave me major attitu…

I'm very tempted to get the lawyers involved, but that will be expensive, take a long time and might not be worth it. Sounds like you have a similar problem, at least Im not the only one. I waived any late fees ( I didn't even mention them) and offered him bonuses if he finished within a certain date (he didnt but hes still demanding them). Its amazing how angry he gets when I ask in the politest way possible that he…

You might be able to get a debt collection agency involved. I don't think debt collectors charge a lot in up front fees, and they probably work fast.

It sounds like you are really thinking about just forgetting about it. That might be a good idea, getting your app or money may not be worth the money.

But before you do, check to see if there are any fast and efficient things you can do to collect. Small claims court might work out. Would a lawyer be willing to take your case for a large percentage of the money, and no payment upfront? It might not work, but it will at least give you a chance to get your app without putting in a significant amount of time.

I found an ebook with tips for collecting business debts, so the ebook will probably have a lot of information you can use. http://www.viacorp.com/DebtBook.html

Edit: I just realized looking through the book that you can petition a court, this might include small claims court, to send the case to arbitration. Arbitration has a lot of downsides for the consumer. The results heavily favor the plaintiff, and the defendant usually pays the fees if found guilty. But all of that is good here.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#90

Post by Kaizyn »

Go ahead and get this guy to give you a full copy of your source code as it now stands. Since he did not finish the project in two months as specified in the contract - you have a written contract, right? - you can terminate the business relationship on the grounds of breach of contract. There should be no need to reverse engineer software that you paid for. The nature of the business relationship here is that you own full rights to the software. Best of luck to you as this sounds like it will be a real pain to resolve.
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