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Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

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Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#41

Post by menloparkbum »

brl wrote: post #39

> I'm thinking the best way would be to get someone to reverse engineer the software You don't have the source code? He just gives you a crippled binary to demonstrate his progress which only works after authenticating with his server? I'm not sure why people here are telling you that there is either some ethical or legal problem with taking control of the work you already paid for.

There is a legal problem. Unless the contract specifically states that the IP for the project belongs to the buyer, the software belongs to the programmer, even after it has been paid for. Threatening him with legal action is a waste of time.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#42

Post by a-priori »

menloparkbum wrote: post #40

Give up and start over with someone else. $2500 for 2 months of work comes out to 8 dollars an hour. This isn't a good wage for a programmer anywhere and should have been your first hint that this wasn't going to work out.

I assume the programmer is not working on this project full-time.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#43

Post by brl »

menloparkbum wrote: post #41
brl wrote: post #39

> I'm thinking the best way would be to get someone to reverse engineer the software You don't have the source code? He just gives you a crippled binary to demonstrate his progress which only works after authenticating with his server? I'm not sure why people here are telling you that there is either some ethical or legal problem with taking control of the work you already paid for.

There is a legal problem. Unless the contract specifically states that the IP for the project belongs to the buyer, the software belongs to the programmer, even after it has been paid for. Threatening him with legal action is a waste of time.

This seems like a pretty basic thing for the contract to specify. What else would the buyer be paying for?

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#44

Post by menloparkbum »

a-priori wrote: post #42
menloparkbum wrote: post #40

Give up and start over with someone else. $2500 for 2 months of work comes out to 8 dollars an hour. This isn't a good wage for a programmer anywhere and should have been your first hint that this wasn't going to work out.

I assume the programmer is not working on this project full-time.

Even so, $2500 is less than a week's worth of work for anyone good.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#46

Post by menloparkbum »

brl wrote: post #43
menloparkbum wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a legal problem. Unless the contract specifically states that the IP for the project belongs to the buyer, the software belongs to the programmer, even after it has been paid for. Threatening him with legal action is a waste of time.

This seems like a pretty basic thing for the contract to specify. What else would the buyer be paying for?

It's unintuitive, but most software contracts do not explicitly give the buyer the IP. It doesn't sound like either of the parties involved know what they are doing, so it's unlikely the contract gives the buyer any power over the IP.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#47

Post by hedgehog »

I've been in similar situations. As others here have pointed out your time is the most valuable thing on the line here and there's a big danger of wasting a lot of it if you sue. Here's one way you can handle it:

1. The quality of the work is probably middling to poor...

2. ... so figure out how much of your time $2k and the code is worth to you.

3. Hopefully you're friendly with an attorney. Print out all of your documentation for this deal, sort it chronologically, and run it by them to see where they think you stand.

4. Provided #3 turned out okay have your friend send a letter asking for the deliverables or a refund.

5. Be prepared to either walk away or negotiate an agreement both of you are equally dissatisfied with.

6. If you walk away be careful about using the binaries you've got, this guy may have rights to the profits even with everything else that's happened.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#48

Post by brl »

menloparkbum wrote: post #46
brl wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a pretty basic thing for the contract to specify. What else would the buyer be paying for?

It's unintuitive, but most software contracts do not explicitly give the buyer the IP. It doesn't sound like either of the parties involved know what they are doing, so it's unlikely the contract gives the buyer any power over the IP.

A contract is only valid if something is exchanged in both directions. This is a legal principle called consideration, and in the absence of consideration a contract has no legal legitimacy.

Without some transfer of IP rights either by copyright assignment or by bare license I don't see what consideration would be for a contract to produce custom software.

If the contract is determined to be invalid the buyer can then make claims to the IP under the doctrine of promissory or reliance-based estoppel since they have built a business on the expectation that the software would be delivered with appropriate rights to distribute and modify it.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#49

Post by philjackson »

I feel for you, sorry. If I could be so bold as to offer advice to anyone doing something in the future I would say:

Have a lawyer draw up a contract. Make it clear that you own the copyright to every line of code that goes into the revision control system that you own, and if possible, manage. Make sure the contract ensures you see the code often, making it a vital part of signing off any milestone. Always, always have a contract, even if you're out on this adventure with a pal. Money can't buy you friends but it most certainly can lose you some.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#50

Post by dablya »

pixpox3 wrote: post #3
chanux wrote: post #2

Didn't you come to any kind of written agreement on your DEAL? If not You have to be very careful of every step you are planning to take. I suggest you to be flexible in this matter & take a step which would do less damage to your investment. I hope HN folks will come up with some good advices :).

Well there was a written agreement, but the funds were released in 4 separate milestones. However, once I'd released 40 percent of the money and it was slightly late, I'd already wasted 2 months and said goodbye to 40 percent of the funds, so I felt like I had to stick with it. A foolish move in retrospect!

Who owns the source code according the agreement? How were the milestones defined?

You can technically reverse engineer the code (it will not look exactly like the original). Depending on the agreement though, if the coder owns the source, you're probably better off not doing that.

Next time specify who owns the source in the agreement, and make sure that you're getting the source as you release the funds.

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