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Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

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Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#61
post #37

It's easy to criticize a policy like this, but they do have millions of clients and it does work. I'd rather have a clean interface for my google then a creative one. Actually, i'd like more clean interfaces all around. There's no shortage of creativity in web design, but large applications/sites with so many users are not the place to test it.

Clean and creative aren't mutually exclusive though. It's perhaps too obvious an example, but Apple's design is on the whole pretty clean - and to my eyes at least looks like a lot more care was given to it. One of my main problem's with Google's design isn't how plain it is, it's just that it looks half finished at times - it doesn't need more, but it doesn't look like it was well thought out.

One of my main problems with Google's design isn't how plain it is, it's just that it looks half finished at times - it doesn't need more, but it doesn't look like it was well thought out.

This could very well be intentional.

Take speaking a foreign language as an example:

1) If you're a novice, a native can tell right off the bat and cuts you some serious slack.

2) Even if you speak their language at an intermediate level, a native can still tell it's not your first tongue and, depending on your demeanor, cuts you some slack.

3) You speak their language fluently and can be considered by any native speaker to have mastered their tongue. However, when you (confidently) mess up in the slightest, you can very well look quite retarded to the natives.

In Google's case, that half-finished look could be very intentional and can look a bit humble, as in "I'm sorry I haven't had time to clean up the place, but please come in and make yourself feel at home".

You can feel a bit better knowing you don't have to be constantly alert as you would around the presence of perceived perfection.

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#62
post #8
post #4

> "Yes, it’s true that a team at Google couldn’t decide between two blues, so they’re testing 41 shades between each blue to see which one performs better. I had a recent debate over whether a border should be 3, 4 or 5 pixels wide, and was asked to prove my case. I can’t operate in an environment like that. I’ve grown tired of debating such miniscule design decisions. There are more exciting design problems in this…

> "Yes, it’s true that a team at Google couldn’t decide between two blues, so they’re testing 41 shades between each blue to see which one performs better. " Actually the evolutionist in me thinks this is pretty cool but I can still understand why a designer would want to quit.

From a designer's perspective, this is an example of engineers over-thinking a problem in a space they don't belong. It's absolutely stupid and a complete waste of time for the simple reason that electronic color is not consistent. A majority of the users will see a different shade of blue depending on their display settings. A very small percentage of the population will see the color that's intended.

And if he's just being sarcastic, my opinion still applies. :)

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#63

He got the lead job at Twitter. Don't ask how I know.

From this, posted over a week ago? http://gawker.com/5169099/twitter-claims-valley-crown-by-poa... ;)

Ha, no, but I guess I wasn't breaking any story then.

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#64
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trashing may be too strong a word, granted. But it's making public unflattering internal details about a company that employed him. I would be personally irritated if I was this guy's manager. Coming across material like that when researching someone for a job would probably be a no-hire flag for me - and many others. I'm sure he's a great designer, but does a post like that expand or limit the number of future gigs…

I would be personally irritated if I was this guy's manager. Who cares about some middle manager's opinion? Offering this in the spirit of advice. I've been hiring people in the valley for 10+ years. I used dejanews to screen applicants prior to google... today yes we will read your tweets, find your blog, and skim it all to get a sense of who you are. Be thoughtful about what you post. It sounds like you are looking…

It's bad form to diss your employer, current or former, in public.

Even more so for a senior guy like that. He's leaving one hot company to go work at another - he can talk about the great opportunity at Twitter. He doesn't need to gripe about the job he's leaving.

His post spawned a bunch of mildly unfavorable press, which is currently #1 on Techmeme. Bad form.

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#65
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be personally irritated if I was this guy's manager. Who cares about some middle manager's opinion? Offering this in the spirit of advice. I've been hiring people in the valley for 10+ years. I used dejanews to screen applicants prior to google... today yes we will read your tweets, find your blog, and skim it all to get a sense of who you are. Be thoughtful about what you post. It sounds like you are looking…

It's bad form to diss your employer, current or former, in public. Even more so for a senior guy like that. He's leaving one hot company to go work at another - he can talk about the great opportunity at Twitter. He doesn't need to gripe about the job he's leaving. His post spawned a bunch of mildly unfavorable press, which is currently #1 on Techmeme. Bad form.

Bad form.

You keep saying this. Perhaps you'd like to explain why.

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#66
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like he's a poor fit for Google. The data-driven decision making process really is central to Google (at least in Search; I dunno how it is in other departments), and if you're working at cross-purposes with that, the culture will and should reject you. That doesn't mean he's a bad designer - I'm sure he's not. But Google occupies a particular place in the market ecosystem: many of its users want a UI that'…

Nowhere does his post imply that the reason he's leaving is because his design aesthetic clashes with Google's desire for "clean, spartan, and utilitarian." It's perfectly possible to meet those goals and not be ugly, like, e.g., iGoogle and Gmail are. I consider most of Apple's designs to be "clean, spartan, and utilitarian". Requiring user testing for shades of blue and thicknesses of border is the height of sillin…

Why is that silly? For Google it takes no time to implement and, because of their traffic, no time to test. What's the downside?

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#67
post #12
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Yes, it’s true that a team at Google couldn’t decide between two blues, so they’re testing 41 shades between each blue to see which one performs better. " Actually the evolutionist in me thinks this is pretty cool but I can still understand why a designer would want to quit.

I guess it depends on if you trust the majority making the right decision. I think often that just leads to mediocracy. 41 shades does seem a bit of a gimmick. I doubt it really matters that much, or that most people can even tell the difference.

It's Wal-Mart vs. Whole Foods. Which would you rather be?

Both answers are fine, of course, the important thing is the "why."

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#68
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that clean and creative are design attributes in opposition to one another? I've seen a number of comments like yours on this thread, and to be honest I'm quite dubious about this attitude. It smacks of the whole "designers are just here to add visual pizzazz" school of thought, which while true of many bad designers, is not true of good ones like Doug Bowman. If you have a lot of information to…

I'm an engineer by heart, so I make the same mistakes mentioned in the article :) I respect a large system and all the work that it implies, and I believe in incremental and tested changes where the stakes are so high. Yes, there can be better designs which are just as clean, but to get to the same level with a new concept would take the same amount of work and the same number of mistakes. This I also believe. As for…

Maybe you just work with the wrong designers... ? No sane, professional designer I know, works like that.

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#69
post #36

It's easy to criticize a policy like this, but they do have millions of clients and it does work. I'd rather have a clean interface for my google then a creative one. Actually, i'd like more clean interfaces all around. There's no shortage of creativity in web design, but large applications/sites with so many users are not the place to test it.

What makes you think that clean and creative are design attributes in opposition to one another? I've seen a number of comments like yours on this thread, and to be honest I'm quite dubious about this attitude. It smacks of the whole "designers are just here to add visual pizzazz" school of thought, which while true of many bad designers, is not true of good ones like Doug Bowman. If you have a lot of information to…

John Gruber touched on a similar point today, quoting from a NY Times article from 2003 (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/30/magazine/30IPOD.html):

“Most people make the mistake of thinking design is what it looks like. People think it’s this veneer — that the designers are handed this box and told, ‘Make it look good!’ That’s not what we think design is. It’s not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works.” - Steve Jobs

[edited formatting (thanks unalone)]

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#70
post #69
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that clean and creative are design attributes in opposition to one another? I've seen a number of comments like yours on this thread, and to be honest I'm quite dubious about this attitude. It smacks of the whole "designers are just here to add visual pizzazz" school of thought, which while true of many bad designers, is not true of good ones like Doug Bowman. If you have a lot of information to…

John Gruber touched on a similar point today, quoting from a NY Times article from 2003 ( http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/30/magazine/30IPOD.html ): “Most people make the mistake of thinking design is what it looks like. People think it’s this veneer — that the designers are handed this box and told, ‘Make it look good!’ That’s not what we think design is. It’s not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how…

Your line stretches out this page ridiculously.

EDIT: That's one of my favorite Steve Jobs quotes. When I was younger and making my first web sites, I thought design was all about making things pretty. Turns out, pretty has almost nothing to do with design (and, in fact most of the design I like the most is aggressively minimal and stripped away). Design's about how things flow.

(I'd also say, speaking as somebody who takes a lot of interest in design, that this makes design incredibly fun once you figure this out. It means that every page you make, even sign-up pages, are wildly different and interesting. I've made something like 6 iterations of my site's log in page, simplifying and condensing it each time, and I get a thrill out of that similar to the one that comes from making code better and more elegant. Not to speak of the notadouche sign up page, which was very very fun to design.)

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