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Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

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Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#51

Post by nkurz »

jeresig wrote: post #4

> "Yes, it’s true that a team at Google couldn’t decide between two blues, so they’re testing 41 shades between each blue to see which one performs better. I had a recent debate over whether a border should be 3, 4 or 5 pixels wide, and was asked to prove my case. I can’t operate in an environment like that. I’ve grown tired of debating such miniscule design decisions. There are more exciting design problems in this…

> It's probably a big reason why Google hasn't had a truly innovative design in a long time.

I think I'm on the other side of this. In the past, I would have said that Google had the best designed interfaces on the Web. Lately, I find myself wishing there was a way to opt-out of their 'upgrades'.

Most of my complaints are about their recent attempts to improve search results by automatically 'fixing' the queries I enter, but I'm guessing the border in question is the bold blue box surrounding the Gmail message list. I hate it.

Presuming he was the one arguing for making it the way it is (visually bold but distracting and unnecessary), I would side strongly with those who wanted to actually test it on users instead of trusting his judgment.

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#52

Post by mcslee »

One issue with data-driven design is that it can be incredibly inefficient for developing new behaviors. If you're changing hues, sure, it works. When it comes to building a novel interaction that might really push the needle, users typically won't learn it overnight. You can't test even two or three significant UI changes without incredible patience and inefficiency, because the data effects might not materialize for weeks, and the user re-education costs at each step are very high.

This effect is multiplied when you're trying to test design changes in products where users need to interact with one another (makes testing new design on only a subset of users incredibly difficult). Data-driven design in these contexts will likely just tell you to stick with what already seems to work.

At the moment, it's unclear if Google's really in the business of developing new user behaviors. They're operating a cash machine with reasonably well-understood dynamics, and will probably do pretty well just tuning it. I think this may turn out to be a strategic issue for them in the long run, but for now it seems like the answer is simple: if you're a talented visual or interaction designer, don't expect to have much fun working at Google.

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#53

Post by Keyframe »

>"Yes, it’s true that a team at Google couldn’t decide between two blues, so they’re testing 41 shades between each blue to see which one performs better."

compare that quote with the one from here: http://gawker.com/5162532/marissa-mayer-googles-biggest-fail...

>"In dictating the appearance of Google's Web pages, Mayer freely admits she makes subjective decisions. In more than a decade on the job, she has not yet codified her design instinct into a written style guide. Instead, Mayer's whims, which managers under her must make a study of, are what rule."

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#54

Post by radu_floricica »

ionfish wrote: post #36
radu_floricica wrote: post #9

It's easy to criticize a policy like this, but they do have millions of clients and it does work. I'd rather have a clean interface for my google then a creative one. Actually, i'd like more clean interfaces all around. There's no shortage of creativity in web design, but large applications/sites with so many users are not the place to test it.

What makes you think that clean and creative are design attributes in opposition to one another? I've seen a number of comments like yours on this thread, and to be honest I'm quite dubious about this attitude. It smacks of the whole "designers are just here to add visual pizzazz" school of thought, which while true of many bad designers, is not true of good ones like Doug Bowman. If you have a lot of information to…

I'm an engineer by heart, so I make the same mistakes mentioned in the article :) I respect a large system and all the work that it implies, and I believe in incremental and tested changes where the stakes are so high.

Yes, there can be better designs which are just as clean, but to get to the same level with a new concept would take the same amount of work and the same number of mistakes. This I also believe.

As for what I think about designers... truth is, not so much lately. In my freelance experience, working with freelance designers, they are the worst when it comes to deadlines (even very loose ones). But the thing I resent them most for is how often they just "add visual pizzazz". Rarely I see a site layout, or worse, application layout which accounts for future development or development ease or changes of any kind. What I really want is a concept which would allow me to do more, not less with my app. And unfortunately I often get one which looks great, but will break if I want to add a couple of controls or filters.

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#55

Post by horatio »

teej wrote: post #10
jeresig wrote: post #4

> "Yes, it’s true that a team at Google couldn’t decide between two blues, so they’re testing 41 shades between each blue to see which one performs better. I had a recent debate over whether a border should be 3, 4 or 5 pixels wide, and was asked to prove my case. I can’t operate in an environment like that. I’ve grown tired of debating such miniscule design decisions. There are more exciting design problems in this…

> It's probably a big reason why Google hasn't had a truly innovative design in a long time. I would argue that they do have a truly innovative design. The fact that it doesn't look new and challenging doesn't preclude that. They have a design that's nuanced in thousands of ways to improve their business. Their design is reminiscient of Victorian architecture, every last detail polished off until it was perfect. Havi…

I honestly think a lot of their 3px, 4px, or 5px decisions are actually an exercise of finding local maxima for their current design.

If they're looking for interfaces that are truly better, they would do far more testing on innovative/educated directions and iterate each of those to see how good they can get. Instead you just make one version as business-helpful as possible, which may be much weaker than your true potential.

I like the idea of data, but there's only so much progress you can make with the same designs in the same mold, tested pixel by pixel.

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#56

Post by curtis »

nostrademons wrote: post #18
jeresig wrote: post #4

> "Yes, it’s true that a team at Google couldn’t decide between two blues, so they’re testing 41 shades between each blue to see which one performs better. I had a recent debate over whether a border should be 3, 4 or 5 pixels wide, and was asked to prove my case. I can’t operate in an environment like that. I’ve grown tired of debating such miniscule design decisions. There are more exciting design problems in this…

It sounds like he's a poor fit for Google. The data-driven decision making process really is central to Google (at least in Search; I dunno how it is in other departments), and if you're working at cross-purposes with that, the culture will and should reject you. That doesn't mean he's a bad designer - I'm sure he's not. But Google occupies a particular place in the market ecosystem: many of its users want a UI that'…

Google search may be clean, spartan, and utilitarian, but I just don't see those adjectives applying to Gmail. OK, I'm not sure, maybe Gmail is utilitarian, but it sure doesn't seem either clean or spartan to me.

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#57

Post by webwright »

If you've got a great designer, you need to let him try what he believes in for an extended period of time. The problem with A/B testing is that they tend to have a short horizon. Facebook's famous newsfeed change pissed off/confused a bunch of people-- but in the long term it was a good thing for Facebook. I wonder if they'd done a 1-2 day A/B test how it would've performed?

And, clearly-- on tiny things like shades of blue and pixel widths, just launch something. With infinite resources it'd be great to test all permutations-- but surely they have more inspiring things to try/test that might move the needle.

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#58

Post by access_denied »

jeresig wrote: post #4

> "Yes, it’s true that a team at Google couldn’t decide between two blues, so they’re testing 41 shades between each blue to see which one performs better. I had a recent debate over whether a border should be 3, 4 or 5 pixels wide, and was asked to prove my case. I can’t operate in an environment like that. I’ve grown tired of debating such miniscule design decisions. There are more exciting design problems in this…

But therein lies a big danger. Design, why a given design works better, has _also_ to do with the culture and the taste of the many. The taste here not so much in the PG sense, but more in what people are used to. Similar like how the many think PCs cause a lot of problems because Windows has a lot of instabilities (Please, just trying to make a point. You know what I mean, that's enough.). This taste will change with the time, what will Google have as a response? Or: when will PG write of the death of Google's design?

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#59

Post by jrockway »

jsrfded wrote: post #30
jimbokun wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't seem so much a trashing to me, as pointing out a poor fit. In other words, if other companies with an approach to design similar to Google's don't want to hire him in the future, that's probably fine with him.

Trashing may be too strong a word, granted. But it's making public unflattering internal details about a company that employed him. I would be personally irritated if I was this guy's manager. Coming across material like that when researching someone for a job would probably be a no-hire flag for me - and many others. I'm sure he's a great designer, but does a post like that expand or limit the number of future gigs…

I would be personally irritated if I was this guy's manager.

Who cares about some middle manager's opinion?

Offering this in the spirit of advice. I've been hiring people in the valley for 10+ years. I used dejanews to screen applicants prior to google... today yes we will read your tweets, find your blog, and skim it all to get a sense of who you are. Be thoughtful about what you post.

It sounds like you are looking for people who will shut up and churn out mediocre code for 8 hours a day. There's certainly a market for that, but I doubt the author of this article is interested.

If I write a blog post about how much I hate cleaning up toxic waste, that will limit my opportunities for employment cleaning up toxic waste. But who cares, I would never do that anyway.

Re: Goodbye Google: "Visual Design Lead" leaves Google

#60

Post by dminor »

axod wrote: post #12
dejb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Yes, it’s true that a team at Google couldn’t decide between two blues, so they’re testing 41 shades between each blue to see which one performs better. " Actually the evolutionist in me thinks this is pretty cool but I can still understand why a designer would want to quit.

I guess it depends on if you trust the majority making the right decision. I think often that just leads to mediocracy. 41 shades does seem a bit of a gimmick. I doubt it really matters that much, or that most people can even tell the difference.

I think the point he's making isn't about the correct way to choose a shade of blue, it's that real design work encompasses far more than picking colors.
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