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Dolphins Call Each Other By Name

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Re: Dolphins Call Each Other By Name

#101

Post by eitland »

ekianjo wrote: post #95
bilbo0s wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...dangerous, vindictive and controlling..." I think the low end of human "intelligence" is something other than what you are talking about here. I think the low end of human "intelligence" would generally be associated with something more akin to mental retardation. Whereas what you're pointing out is more... like the behavior of a sociopath. Dangerous, vindictive and controlling is not a sign of a lack of intellig…

> Dangerous, vindictive and controlling is not a sign of a lack of intelligence... in fact... it's probably the opposite I would imagine. I am not sure I understand why you think this way.

Because history (esp. European history I guess) will show you that brilliant techies have done really cruel things.

Re: Dolphins Call Each Other By Name

#102

Post by ekianjo »

alan_cx wrote: post #99
ekianjo wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dangerous, vindictive and controlling is not a sign of a lack of intelligence... in fact... it's probably the opposite I would imagine. I am not sure I understand why you think this way.

Because he doesn't equate "intelligence" with "good".

Any supporting evidence ?

Re: Dolphins Call Each Other By Name

#103

Post by nwh »

noonespecial wrote: post #56
srean wrote: post #6

They are also known to build difficult to make toys (air bubble vortex rings) to entertain themselves. They have to discover how to make it. Sometimes they can be quite possessive, they would break the toy if someone not so knowledgeable wants to play with it. Once a dolphin figures it out how to make one, his/her peers eventually figure it out too. So it kind of spreads within a group like fashion. This behavior has…

I wonder (seriously) if I learned to create these rings myself, would I earn mad dolphin cred?

The wikipedia article on them says that divers can create them too, with the aid of scuba gear.

Re: Dolphins Call Each Other By Name

#104

Post by drzaiusapelord »

srean wrote: post #6

They are also known to build difficult to make toys (air bubble vortex rings) to entertain themselves. They have to discover how to make it. Sometimes they can be quite possessive, they would break the toy if someone not so knowledgeable wants to play with it. Once a dolphin figures it out how to make one, his/her peers eventually figure it out too. So it kind of spreads within a group like fashion. This behavior has…

I went to a dolphin show at the Vancouver Aquarium a few years back and wandered near the dolphin pool after the show. I saw one dolphin playing with what looked like a tiny piece of thread that accidentally fell into the pool. He was spitting it out, watching it dance through the water, quickly sucking it in only to spit it out and watch it wiggle, over and over. He was just entertaining himself and having a good time.

They're incredible animals.

Re: Dolphins Call Each Other By Name

#105

Post by ComputerGuru »

Any thread on dolphins is not complete without a link to the 1992 NYT article on dolphins: [http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/18/science/dolphin-courtship-...]

Here's the sad part: none of this is new. 1992. 1992. Over twenty years ago.

As children they make a best friend for life, they form complicated alliances for mutual benefit, they form political alliances/gangs, they help each other out both tit-for-tat and "pro-bono" while keep score of debts (I help you today, you will owe me at some undefined point in the future), they group together to accomplish tasks (sometimes/often at the expense of other dolphins, for instance a female they are trying to get with).

Another important study was done to research the presence (or lack thereof) of a universal dolphin "language" (EDIT: found source! [http://wakeup-world.com/2011/11/28/the-discovery-of-dolphin-...] but not peer reviewed research). It involved showing dolphins in one aquarium a sequence of objects (red ball, green box, etc.) and recording the sounds made, then travelling to another aquarium with dolphins that have never been in contact with the first and playing back the sounds made, then watching the dolphins "locate" or "identify" the object the sounds were made in response to. They achieved an astonishing (if memory serves!) 86% accuracy rate implying audible descriptions of objects, much in the same manner that a "bee dance" can be universally understood across hives/colonies except it's based on actual sounds rather than movements.

Regardless of whether or not you feel dolphins deserve the title of "non-human sentient beings" (whatever "sentient" means, it's such a non-word), I think anyone involved in the mass slaughter of dolphins in an attempt to ransom money should be imprisoned for being a killer (Reference: 900 dolphins killed in Solomon Islands as black mail for raise in pay negotiations. Sorry, but f* them [ http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&... ])

Re: Dolphins Call Each Other By Name

#106

Post by yareally »

ekianjo wrote: post #100
yareally wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, what good does it do in the end? Adopt the good ideas of the past and avoid (and learn from) the mistakes of the past so we do not repeat them. One can respect the environment and animals without smashing heads. Pretty much every culture has had a violent past at some point, even cultures like the Romans and the Greeks were rather barbaric by modern standards (especially the Romans). Our descendants will probab…

You do not have to go back very far to find barbary even in our civilization ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert-Fran%C3%A7ois_Damiens ) and this happened in the same century as the human rights philosophers. That was just a few generations ago.

Heh, that's funny, I was just watching a 3 part BBC Documentary on Versailles[1] (part 1 Louis XIV, part 2 Louis XV, part 3 Louis XVI). They talked quite a bit about Louis XV's attempted assassination and Damiens. From what was said, most other countries were appalled at the execution style.

I'd still say The Terror and Great Terror during the French Revolution were far more barbaric while masquerading in the name of enlightenment though. Even someone like Robespierre, who initially despised the death penalty and was seen as a champion of free thinking ended up being tyrant responsible for the deaths of thousands and restricted basic human freedoms like the press and speech.

[1] http://docuwiki.net/index.php?title=Versailles_(BBC)

Re: Dolphins Call Each Other By Name

#107

Post by eitland »

yareally wrote: post #65
pyre wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Murder Of Crows was done in concert w/ CBC, though they may have done their own post-production work (I've only watched the PBS version). Canadians should probably look to the CBC[1] to watch it. There's also an interesting blurb from the director here[2]. [1]: http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/natureofthings/2009/murderof... [2]: http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/natureofthings/2009/murderof...

Wow, that second link was a really good article. Thanks for sharing. I didn't realize crows were that camera shy or observant that people were watching them back. Makes sense though they they would be paranoid when someone or some thing is paying them too much attention as 99% of the time it means something bad will come next.

Around here there is a saying that crows can count to 2. So as the story goes: If you are going to hunt crows from a shed you should walk 4 men into the shed and then 3 should leave. Then the crow will count one, two, many men went in and many men went out and will consider the shed empty. I don't know if it is real but I have heard it from farmers/ around where I grew up.

Then again: Crows aren't too intelligent, the ladder trap seems to be effective around the world - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZLYiOn83Po

Re: Dolphins Call Each Other By Name

#108

Post by yareally »

nealabq wrote: post #83
yareally wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that second link was a really good article. Thanks for sharing. I didn't realize crows were that camera shy or observant that people were watching them back. Makes sense though they they would be paranoid when someone or some thing is paying them too much attention as 99% of the time it means something bad will come next.

Once I cornered a rabbit in my ally. The usual way out was blocked, and the rabbit was frantically searching the far wall for another escape while I watched. After a bit I was momentarily distracted, and the rabbit choose that moment to dash past me. Apparently the rabbit knew my attention had turned. As would a crow. They don't need our special mental abilities -- language and lambdas -- to model the mental states o…

I guess what just surprised me was crows would be that alert when they really have the advantage on us when it comes to escaping and being aware from having the high ground and ability to fly (well unless a person is hunting them, which is unlikely in a city). That combined with their communication with each other of potential threats.

I grew up on a farm around lots of wild animals and you're correct about rabbits though from my times of trying to catch them or saving baby bunnies from the cats. They're very observant, but I always figured they had much more reason to be from being alone and also limited to the ground without the ability to climb trees.

I've seen some birds that have little awareness (mourning doves and some sparrows). Sometimes they don't even realize you're almost on top of them until you're right next to them and then they freak out and fly away.

Re: Dolphins Call Each Other By Name

#109

Post by yareally »

eitland wrote: post #107
yareally wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that second link was a really good article. Thanks for sharing. I didn't realize crows were that camera shy or observant that people were watching them back. Makes sense though they they would be paranoid when someone or some thing is paying them too much attention as 99% of the time it means something bad will come next.

Around here there is a saying that crows can count to 2. So as the story goes: If you are going to hunt crows from a shed you should walk 4 men into the shed and then 3 should leave. Then the crow will count one, two, many men went in and many men went out and will consider the shed empty. I don't know if it is real but I have heard it from farmers/ around where I grew up. Then again: Crows aren't too intelligent, th…

I wouldn't call some crows falling for a trap a clear indication of not being intelligent as there are probably many that also avoid it. Even humans fall for obvious traps again and again that many of us also avoid (phishing, Nigerian scams, pyramid schemes, link jacking, etc).

Not trying to be a defender of animal intelligence, just playing devil advocate for the sake of good, intelligent conversation :)

Re: Dolphins Call Each Other By Name

#110

Post by mapt »

ekianjo wrote: post #95
bilbo0s wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...dangerous, vindictive and controlling..." I think the low end of human "intelligence" is something other than what you are talking about here. I think the low end of human "intelligence" would generally be associated with something more akin to mental retardation. Whereas what you're pointing out is more... like the behavior of a sociopath. Dangerous, vindictive and controlling is not a sign of a lack of intellig…

> Dangerous, vindictive and controlling is not a sign of a lack of intelligence... in fact... it's probably the opposite I would imagine. I am not sure I understand why you think this way.

Lying, manipulating, and tricking ("outsmarting") others require considerable theory of mind, persuasive ability, creativity, and conscientious problem-solving execution. A dumb person is not able to perform these activities well.
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