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A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

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Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#41

Post by kevin_rubyhouse »

toyg wrote: post #39
druiid wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it just goes to show what most people know already: That there is a vast campaign by the Chinese government to carry out hacks on foreign (and internal sometimes I bet) targets. Basically, the thing I took away from the article is that it's so wide at this point that no matter the hacker there that you cast your net toward, it probably leads back to the government. In most other countries I imagine that most of…

> In most other countries I imagine that most of the hackers are either third-party actors [...] or random 'kids' Let's say this hypothesis is true; we should then deduce that the Chinese government is years (decades?) ahead of "developed" countries in terms of information warfare. It's quite a worrying thought. Let's say that your hypothesis is actually false: this would mean that there is an ongoing similarly-sized…

My thoughts exactly. The US probably has a just as big or more sophisticated organization of hackers and cyber warriors. It's fantastic and also overlooked when talking about Chinese cyber espionage. Much talk seems so one sided, but it's hard to objectively talk about without knowing what the American cyber warriors have been up to. I'll take it as a sign that they're doing a good job and not getting caught. Furthermore, I take comfort in the fact that there are slim chances that the US and China would actually go to physical war with each other. I want to end up working with China in the future, not necessarily against them.

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#42

Post by cerebrum »

kevin_rubyhouse wrote: post #41
toyg wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In most other countries I imagine that most of the hackers are either third-party actors [...] or random 'kids' Let's say this hypothesis is true; we should then deduce that the Chinese government is years (decades?) ahead of "developed" countries in terms of information warfare. It's quite a worrying thought. Let's say that your hypothesis is actually false: this would mean that there is an ongoing similarly-sized…

My thoughts exactly. The US probably has a just as big or more sophisticated organization of hackers and cyber warriors. It's fantastic and also overlooked when talking about Chinese cyber espionage. Much talk seems so one sided, but it's hard to objectively talk about without knowing what the American cyber warriors have been up to. I'll take it as a sign that they're doing a good job and not getting caught. Further…

> The US probably has a just as big or more sophisticated organization of hackers and cyber warriors.

It's called the NSA.

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#44

Post by qschneier »

kevin_rubyhouse wrote: post #41
toyg wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In most other countries I imagine that most of the hackers are either third-party actors [...] or random 'kids' Let's say this hypothesis is true; we should then deduce that the Chinese government is years (decades?) ahead of "developed" countries in terms of information warfare. It's quite a worrying thought. Let's say that your hypothesis is actually false: this would mean that there is an ongoing similarly-sized…

My thoughts exactly. The US probably has a just as big or more sophisticated organization of hackers and cyber warriors. It's fantastic and also overlooked when talking about Chinese cyber espionage. Much talk seems so one sided, but it's hard to objectively talk about without knowing what the American cyber warriors have been up to. I'll take it as a sign that they're doing a good job and not getting caught. Further…

China will certainly won't start a war against the US. There is actually a joke in China saying that if US wants to delay any high level government meetings they can just ask the US schools to have a mandatory parents meeting. And then many of those who in control of China will just fly over because they care about their children as much as other ordinary parents if not more.

And the US will certainly won't start the war either, because you can hardly find someone else who keep lending you money almost unconditionally.

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#46

Post by walshemj »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #19

I honestly don't know that the Chinese government is in the wrong here. If we look, historically, every developing country had to steal intellectual "property" in order to compete against the bigger players. Britain did it when they stole Dutch loom technology (and created massive tariffs in order to keep British wool for British industry), the US did it when they coaxed Samuel Slater to illegally bring British mill…

True but you have to pay the price when caught as Russia did when the uk expelled 140 or so KGB and GRU officers.

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#47

Post by druiid »

cgh wrote: post #26
druiid wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what? How is this racist? If the story said 'All Chinese are hackers', that would be racist. If the story said, which it did, 'A person who lives and works in China for the government spy academy is a hacker', that is not racist. Edit: Trolling troll is a troll. I 'knew' it was a troll account, but looked just now to be sure... created 34 minutes ago :P.

It's like HN has never heard of the 50 Cent Army. Guess what, they're here and they aren't trolling.

I've heard of them, but you think this commenter wasn't simply a troll? Could be so, but I question how useful it would be here. HN is pretty well known, but enough to have concerted campaigns in place?

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#48

Post by hexagonc »

dublinben wrote: post #30
hexagonc wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we would want to use the disreputable behavior of nations in the past as a model for what is acceptable today. That's why treaties and agreements are made so that we learn from our mistakes. Not playing by the rules that you have agreed to and expect others to adhere to is cheating -- I have no problem with people calling China out on it. It's not like China is unfairly singled out and there isn't plent…

IP is just a made up way for incumbent producers to squash competition. The Chinese have just as much right to ignore it as every other developing country in history did. Imposing developed standards on developing countries is just pulling the ladder up after ourselves.

I'm not making a moral argument about IP and whether it is good or not. I'm saying that if you've entered into agreements with other nations on the premise that you do something (in this case, protect and not steal IP) then you should honor those agreements. Whether there is some Machiavelian reason to say you're doing one thing while secretly doing something else is a different question. I also don't think that Google should use espionage to steal secrets from Microsoft and vice versa, even if there is something to be gained.

One should also note that China is not some innocent bystander in this since Chinese companies have sought and obtained patents to stifle competition as well. I also think the distinction made between "developed" and "developing" countries is not useful in this case. China has the second largest economy in the world and is very modern by many standards. They have gained great wealth from the "developed" countries least of all because the developed countries are their largest market for trade. China has a net trade surplus of hundreds of billions of dollars. They are not an underdog in this.

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#49

Post by hexagonc »

rdtsc wrote: post #34
hexagonc wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we would want to use the disreputable behavior of nations in the past as a model for what is acceptable today. That's why treaties and agreements are made so that we learn from our mistakes. Not playing by the rules that you have agreed to and expect others to adhere to is cheating -- I have no problem with people calling China out on it. It's not like China is unfairly singled out and there isn't plent…

> the Chinese don't have a right to ignore other countries' IP if they want those same countries to respect theirs. But that "right" is a "moral right", that us perhaps want to impose on it. Not sure if it is an enforceable law. If we stick to the moral approach. China might see it as hypocrisy as well. From their point of view they can say "well you stole to improve your industry, you burned coal like it was nobody'…

If we stick to the moral approach. China might see it as hypocrisy as well. From their point of view they can say "well you stole to improve your industry, you burned coal like it was nobody's business to ramp up your steel mills, now you tell us we have to be green, and waste all this money duplicating R&D effort -- that's not fair, and it is our _right_ to do however we please".

No one has a problem with China emulating the things the US did to grow its economy that were good, such as allowing women to work and developing a highly educated workforce. However, we would not want them to use slavery or ignore the environmental impact of coal use because we now know that those were bad things. Repeating our mistakes is bad for the world and bad for China, as the Chinese are seeing for themselves the pollution derived from over-reliance on coal.

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