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A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

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Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#31

Post by smsm42 »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #19

I honestly don't know that the Chinese government is in the wrong here. If we look, historically, every developing country had to steal intellectual "property" in order to compete against the bigger players. Britain did it when they stole Dutch loom technology (and created massive tariffs in order to keep British wool for British industry), the US did it when they coaxed Samuel Slater to illegally bring British mill…

How breaking into companies' computer and subverting them into serving botnet herders has anything to do with IP? Most of them don't even have a single thing to do with IP. It's like justifying robbery by saying "well, you have big banks in your country so it's ok if we rob you".

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#32

Post by lionmind »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #19

I honestly don't know that the Chinese government is in the wrong here. If we look, historically, every developing country had to steal intellectual "property" in order to compete against the bigger players. Britain did it when they stole Dutch loom technology (and created massive tariffs in order to keep British wool for British industry), the US did it when they coaxed Samuel Slater to illegally bring British mill…

The issue here is not reverse-engineering a technology or purchasing it and replicating it. Many people would argue that it's inevitable.

What encompasses IP is not just technology though.

The concern is that there are foreign actors attacking businesses and doing much more than looking at technology. They are looking through financials for current accounts, revenue streams, customer lists, and pending contracts. They are taking the source code from software companies and schematics from hardware companies. They are effectively acquiring all the information necessary to replace those businesses, often without knowing what they have, and selling it higher up the food chain.

This particular actor in the article looks like really low hanging fruit compared to what other companies are warning they are being attacked by.

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#33

Post by cscurmudgeon »

dublinben wrote: post #30
hexagonc wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we would want to use the disreputable behavior of nations in the past as a model for what is acceptable today. That's why treaties and agreements are made so that we learn from our mistakes. Not playing by the rules that you have agreed to and expect others to adhere to is cheating -- I have no problem with people calling China out on it. It's not like China is unfairly singled out and there isn't plent…

IP is just a made up way for incumbent producers to squash competition. The Chinese have just as much right to ignore it as every other developing country in history did. Imposing developed standards on developing countries is just pulling the ladder up after ourselves.

  IP is just a made up way for incumbent producers to squash competition.
You are just saying that. Remember IP is not just patents. You seem to confusing different forms of stealing IP.

Do you feel that stealing source code is justifiable too?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/01/google-hack-attack/

If so, then where do you draw the line?

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#34

Post by rdtsc »

hexagonc wrote: post #28
mjmahone17 wrote: post #19

I honestly don't know that the Chinese government is in the wrong here. If we look, historically, every developing country had to steal intellectual "property" in order to compete against the bigger players. Britain did it when they stole Dutch loom technology (and created massive tariffs in order to keep British wool for British industry), the US did it when they coaxed Samuel Slater to illegally bring British mill…

I don't think we would want to use the disreputable behavior of nations in the past as a model for what is acceptable today. That's why treaties and agreements are made so that we learn from our mistakes. Not playing by the rules that you have agreed to and expect others to adhere to is cheating -- I have no problem with people calling China out on it. It's not like China is unfairly singled out and there isn't plent…

> the Chinese don't have a right to ignore other countries' IP if they want those same countries to respect theirs.

But that "right" is a "moral right", that us perhaps want to impose on it. Not sure if it is an enforceable law.

If we stick to the moral approach. China might see it as hypocrisy as well. From their point of view they can say "well you stole to improve your industry, you burned coal like it was nobody's business to ramp up your steel mills, now you tell us we have to be green, and waste all this money duplicating R&D effort -- that's not fair, and it is our _right_ to do however we please".

Now practically I don't agree with that, but from a more rational position, I could see their point, as well.

It also seemed rather silly when we make fun of Chinese for stealing our high tech technology (stealth, radar, etc). It would seem pretty irrational and wasteful from their point of view _not_ to spend $100k to bribe some spy and instead do spend $10b developing stuff from scratch.

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#35

Post by bediger4000 »

druiid wrote: post #12
qschneier wrote: post #7

The university this guy works for (The PLA Information Engineering University) has a military background. And in China this means the teachers and many of the students are literally military personnel.

Well, it just goes to show what most people know already: That there is a vast campaign by the Chinese government to carry out hacks on foreign (and internal sometimes I bet) targets. Basically, the thing I took away from the article is that it's so wide at this point that no matter the hacker there that you cast your net toward, it probably leads back to the government. In most other countries I imagine that most of…

Is "The Chinese Government" that monolithic? It's a People's Liberation Army university. In many countries (memorably, the Soviet Union) the army was a semi-independent entity, with goals of its own. Is this true in China? If so, why go around decrying "Chinese hacking" when you should decry "PLA Hacking"?

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#36

Post by bediger4000 »

alan_cx wrote: post #25
dhimes wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was a US hacker he'd be in jail.

A US hacker hacking the Chinese? I some how doubt it. Probably be offered a job. US hacker hacking US computers... well, I guess government has to vent its vengeance somewhere if it cant get its mits on foreign hackers. Dont get me wrong, my lot in the UK would do the same. More over, if the Chinese wanted a US citizen extradited for hacking a Chinese computer, do you think the US would hand him or her over to the Ch…

I'm not sure that someone hacking the Chinese would be offered a job. The case of Shawn Carpenter (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Professionalism/Shawn_Carpenter...) pertains here. He merely got in big trouble, but the CFAA probably could have been brought to bear on him.

I don't disagree with you about the moralizing, fingerpointing and games to fill the Cold War void.

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#37

Post by [deleted] »

mjmahone17 wrote: post #19

I honestly don't know that the Chinese government is in the wrong here. If we look, historically, every developing country had to steal intellectual "property" in order to compete against the bigger players. Britain did it when they stole Dutch loom technology (and created massive tariffs in order to keep British wool for British industry), the US did it when they coaxed Samuel Slater to illegally bring British mill…

[deleted]

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#39

Post by toyg »

druiid wrote: post #12
qschneier wrote: post #7

The university this guy works for (The PLA Information Engineering University) has a military background. And in China this means the teachers and many of the students are literally military personnel.

Well, it just goes to show what most people know already: That there is a vast campaign by the Chinese government to carry out hacks on foreign (and internal sometimes I bet) targets. Basically, the thing I took away from the article is that it's so wide at this point that no matter the hacker there that you cast your net toward, it probably leads back to the government. In most other countries I imagine that most of…

> In most other countries I imagine that most of the hackers are either third-party actors [...] or random 'kids'

Let's say this hypothesis is true; we should then deduce that the Chinese government is years (decades?) ahead of "developed" countries in terms of information warfare. It's quite a worrying thought.

Let's say that your hypothesis is actually false: this would mean that there is an ongoing similarly-sized info-warfare effort waged by the US government (at least), but we rarely hear about it. Again quite a worrying thought.

Re: A Chinese Hacker's Identity Unmasked

#40

Post by qschneier »

bediger4000 wrote: post #35
druiid wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it just goes to show what most people know already: That there is a vast campaign by the Chinese government to carry out hacks on foreign (and internal sometimes I bet) targets. Basically, the thing I took away from the article is that it's so wide at this point that no matter the hacker there that you cast your net toward, it probably leads back to the government. In most other countries I imagine that most of…

Is "The Chinese Government" that monolithic? It's a People's Liberation Army university. In many countries (memorably, the Soviet Union) the army was a semi-independent entity, with goals of its own. Is this true in China? If so, why go around decrying "Chinese hacking" when you should decry "PLA Hacking"?

The ruler in China is a trinity: the government, the army and the communist party.

Though with the "economic reform" and the unstoppable information flow with internet, China has become something really weird unlike anyone else in the history. Nobody believes in communism and everybody knows the government is lying all the time and yet just lives with it. Every activity by the government is for money and mostly quick money (for the officials).

I don't even think the hackers in this matter care much for the information. They may just try to get more funds from the government. Sometimes they even frame somebody or fake a threats to get the money. The funds will always be granted in such a situation because "if you don't grant you put the country in danger" and "if you grant you can take the commissions".

Most of the time every bit of it is simply dirty corrupted business. Many of the officials' children are permanent residents in the US. Some of them are even already citizens.

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