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BBC demands DRM for HTML5

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Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#21

Post by cmircea »

nwh wrote: post #11
Drakim wrote: post #6

How exactly would DRM for HTML5 work? Couldn't I just fork Chronimum or Firefox and make the browser save the video content in a file rather than showing it?

It wouldn't. DRM relies on obfuscation, and open source software obviously can't have that. They'll probably write a horribly insecure Silverlight plugin that will be cracked in a matter of minutes. ED: It looks like they'll have a "plugin" that does authentication with a remote server, and then decodes the frames sent to it. The browser displays them, or the DRM removal software sniffs the keys and decrypts the cont…

So why can't the browser save the frames then? That's not DRM.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#22

Post by betterunix »

alanctgardner2 wrote: post #19
nwh wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't. DRM relies on obfuscation, and open source software obviously can't have that. They'll probably write a horribly insecure Silverlight plugin that will be cracked in a matter of minutes. ED: It looks like they'll have a "plugin" that does authentication with a remote server, and then decodes the frames sent to it. The browser displays them, or the DRM removal software sniffs the keys and decrypts the cont…

> a horribly insecure Silverlight plugin This is about the HTML5 spec, so I don't even know where you get that idea from. They want to be able to lock down content which is embedded with the video tag. Personally, I don't like the idea of it tying into the operating system. I'm willing to accept any solution that can be built into browser binaries, cross-platform. I don't like the idea of a solution that doesn't work…

"if media companies think this sort of solution is necessary, we should meet them half-way."

Or we could not meet them half-way and remind them that they do not own the web and that their business model is as out of date as Kodak. Why should we accept any more attacks on the freedom and openness of the web or the greater Internet? This companies are the ones who need to change: they need to adapt their businesses to the realities of this century's technology.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#23

Post by cmircea »

I would like to know how they plan to get Firefox and Chrome to support that. As free software, adding such functionality would be moot, as it can be trivially by-passed.

Or do they want to ignore about 80% of Internet users?

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#24

Post by takluyver »

Benferhat wrote: post #15
lukifer wrote: post #5

I hate DRM too, and yet I love watching Netflix streaming. The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes. The fact that DRM is always defeatable through hacks and analog loopholes doesn't matter: it just has to be good enough to deter the vast majority of users. I believe we need comprehensive IP reform across the boa…

> The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc) It's already trivial for regular users to download pirated data, even if only experts can get around the DRM to copy and release it[0] in the first place. Case in point: House of Cards. Fully, freely and easily available to Joe The Pirate Next Door Schmoe, now that some nerd (TRIC? BTN? ASAP? Immerse?) has gotten aro…

The DRM is just one part of a strategy to make it just sufficiently unattractive to get a pirated version. Users can be worried about being caught, about their computer getting viruses, or just be put off by ugly websites and interfaces (Joe Schmoe isn't going to use get_iplayer at the command line).

If they can make pirated versions look shady and illicit, lots of people will be willing to pay a bit for an official version of the content. Part of that is implementing enough DRM that making a copy isn't as easy as right clicking the video and clicking 'save as'.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#25

Post by venomsnake »

youngerdryas wrote: post #17
venomsnake wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or we can outlaw DRM and put evolutionary pressure on the content providers and emasculate the gatekeepers.

How is outlawing something evolution?

Content provider insist "We need DRM to make money with out current business model" ... we say tough luck - innovate and evolve without DRM. It is the same way FIA tries to push innovation in F1 - by strategically forbidding cheesy technologies.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#26

Post by youngerdryas »

venomsnake wrote: post #25
youngerdryas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is outlawing something evolution?

Content provider insist "We need DRM to make money with out current business model" ... we say tough luck - innovate and evolve without DRM. It is the same way FIA tries to push innovation in F1 - by strategically forbidding cheesy technologies.

But if you actually believe in evolution then the problem will take care of itself because someone will come along and eat their lunch.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#27

Post by pbhjpbhj »

samarudge wrote: post #3

First you have to understand that not all of the content broadcast on the BBC is created by the BBC. They carry programs made by independent, limited, for-profit studios. They also regularly carry movies. All of which they put up on their iPlayer service. As an example, you can currently watch Madagascar, in full, for free on BBC iPlayer ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gd77z/Madagascar/ ). While there is an…

>you can currently watch Madagascar, in full, for free on BBC iPlayer

Not if you're a license fee payer or a UK tax-payer. You already paid to watch it.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#28

Post by JumpCrisscross »

betterunix wrote: post #18
lukifer wrote: post #5

I hate DRM too, and yet I love watching Netflix streaming. The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes. The fact that DRM is always defeatable through hacks and analog loopholes doesn't matter: it just has to be good enough to deter the vast majority of users. I believe we need comprehensive IP reform across the boa…

"The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes." Yes, and if it is trivial to send photos without first developing them, the business model for Kodak will vanish! Why, if it were trivial for people to move a carriage from point A to point B, the business model for buggy whip makers might vanish! Why should we be conce…

Obsolescence requires an old as well as a new. We have an old. But no clear new. Thus no obsolescence, just have a situation that doesn't work.

>"Why should we be concerned about inherently bad business models...vanishing?"

Because they may provide us something of value, e.g. content we'd rather have today than in ten years after some new distributor has figured his model out.

DRM could be considered a patch job, but no more than, say, land rights. Some societies, e.g. the Native Americans, had no concept of land rights. The U.S. likes strictly defined personal property. The British, and many Nordic countries, preserve a public "right to roam" to uncultivated land, public or private [1]. The balance can vary from situation to situation, but takes experimentation and an open mind to find. That is why we should care - because this is an active debate playing out in the twin forums of politics and markets.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_roam

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#29

Post by [deleted] »

Udo wrote: post #10
samarudge wrote: post #3

First you have to understand that not all of the content broadcast on the BBC is created by the BBC. They carry programs made by independent, limited, for-profit studios. They also regularly carry movies. All of which they put up on their iPlayer service. As an example, you can currently watch Madagascar, in full, for free on BBC iPlayer ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gd77z/Madagascar/ ). While there is an…

I think everyone understands why these companies (including BBC) are pushing for DRM. That doesn't mean it's not evil. The larger issue here, expressed quite well by Doctorow, is that this push requires converting the web into a closed platform. It's clear why entertainment companies want to turn the internet into something that can only be consumed by, say, the Apple app store. That's also the reason why this will n…

[deleted]

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#30

Post by nwh »

alanctgardner2 wrote: post #19
nwh wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't. DRM relies on obfuscation, and open source software obviously can't have that. They'll probably write a horribly insecure Silverlight plugin that will be cracked in a matter of minutes. ED: It looks like they'll have a "plugin" that does authentication with a remote server, and then decodes the frames sent to it. The browser displays them, or the DRM removal software sniffs the keys and decrypts the cont…

> a horribly insecure Silverlight plugin This is about the HTML5 spec, so I don't even know where you get that idea from. They want to be able to lock down content which is embedded with the video tag. Personally, I don't like the idea of it tying into the operating system. I'm willing to accept any solution that can be built into browser binaries, cross-platform. I don't like the idea of a solution that doesn't work…

> This is about the HTML5 spec

You're right, I got my wires crossed until I found the page with the spec on it (the first edit).

The end result is even worse; every computer has an obfuscated binary that does unknown things with media served to it. Sounds like the recipe for wide-scale pwnage to me.

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